Ashley Harrington, Lawyer, Advocate, & Student Debt Expert

Hi, Ashley! Clearly I am very excited to finally sit down with you, and I’m so happy we found the time. Can you please share what you do? You can share whatever and however feels best.

I work at a policy advocacy non-profit called the Center for Responsible Lending, and I am our Director of Federal Advocacy and a Senior Counsel. I manage a lot of our federal strategy, in terms of our outreach to people on the Hill. Or outreach to regulators, or outreach to partners that we are in coalition with, around our policy priorities. It’s everything from weighing in on specific pieces of legislation, providing technical assistance to staffers or partner organizations, to saying whether we endorse or support something, to writing letters and sending an e-blast, organizing briefings and webinars. And just thinking through what will be effective on each particular issue, at any particular time. And one of my big roles is that I’m also the lead on our federal student loan work. That’s my big policy expertise.

Great. Since we’re in the time of a lot of hot debate around federal student loans, can you share a little bit more about your work on that?

I’ve been working on student loans for years but over the past two years or so we have really been gaining traction on the push for broad-based debt cancellation. We think it’s really important, because so many people are struggling with student debt.

Oh, trust – I know. [laughs]

You and I both have student debt, so we know for real for real, how it is. And it’s particularly hard for Black people. People of color in general, but Black people have it the worst. And, I don’t need to go into the reasons why because we already know why. So, we’ve been working on this for a long time. Back in the summer of 2019, we put out a big report with civil rights partners to show the effect that cancellation would have, even at the $10,000 level. This has been a really big campaign. Now, because of the COVID crisis, so many things that were only kind of possible before have been feeling more possible and more urgent. Never before has Congress passed a $2 trillion relief bill, followed by another $1 trillion, and now an additional $2 trillion is headed to the President’s desk, without explicit pay-fors. The rules are out the window, because everything is so crazy. We finally are at the place where people are talking about student loan debt relief in a real way, as a policy, and as a response to COVID. So, that’s really exciting.

This past summer we thought we had a major win, because the House put out their proposal, and it had some cancellation ($10,000) in relief for all borrowers. It didn’t end up making the cut, because we got word from the Hill that lawmakers ended up wanting relief for certain groups of people who are economically distressed, such as people who were in default before the crisis, or had an economic hardship deferment, or who would have been paying $0 payment on income-based repayment. But our position has always been, for one, that’s not the only way you determine whether someone’s in distress. And, also, it doesn’t make sense right now because individuals would have had to qualify for $0 payment, or be in default before March 12th. So, all the people who lost their jobs due to COVID would not get that relief. So, even as a specific response to this public health crisis we are in, it also didn’t make sense. And beyond not making sense, it’s inequitable.

Currently, we have been pushing for executive action on cancellation. President Biden can actually direct the Secretary of Education to cancel debt for federal student borrowers. There has been a major push by Democratic congressional leaders to cancel $50k in student debt per borrower using this authority. We joined with over 325 orgs in support of this resolution. We have done new reports, written op-eds, etc. 

We have made a lot of progress but we still have some who don’t think cancellation  is necessary. Like, yes, it will cost money but over a long period of time (and federal budget rules have actually already accounted for the loans) and money will also be put back into the economy. Also, so much of this debt is on track to not be repaid because the crisis is that unsustainable. And the economic benefits would be huge, in addition to the racial equity component.

At a high level, beyond Coronavirus, what are some of the long-term implications of student loan debt relief? Particularly for Black people and other POCs.

I mean, student loan debt is really holding us back. Black people are more likely to borrow, borrow more, and take longer to pay it back. So, this is something that is causing intergenerational problems. It’s the product of the wealth gap, and it’s reinforcing it. Because now, you have to go to college, and these are not choices. People act like you made the choice to go to college, but most of the jobs that pay well enough to live comfortably, to have benefits, require at least some college. And college is expensive. So, you have to pay for it. The Pell grant doesn’t pay for much of anything, and if you are a low-income student, your only option is student loans.

And, sometimes your parents have taken out student loans for you. And it used to be that parents could borrow against their house. But after the Great Recession, a lot of our folks don’t have houses, or have very little equity in those houses that they could borrow against. So, they have to take out even more debt. And so, it just builds on top of each other. And the fact that, if we want to be on par pay-wise, with our counterparts, we have to have more education. So, we have to have a grad school education to get what they are paid for just having a bachelor’s – for the same work. So, that’s even more debt. And so, it just builds on top of each other. And then, if you are doing income-based repayment, if you can never pay it off because the terms are 20 or 25 years, that’s like another mortgage. So, if you have this mortgage, how do you get the other mortgage? How do you get an actual house? How do you start an actual business? And then, how does that pass down to your kids when they get ready to go to college? You could realistically still be paying your student debt, while you’re paying for your kids to go to college.

So, this is just a cycle that we can never get out of, and it’s really problematic. It just makes it worse now that we’re in this crisis, where we’re more likely to feel the effects of COVID and the economic crisis we’re in. It’s hit our community harder, like all other social ills do. And when we come out of this, more people are going to be in default, more people are going to be delinquent, and our debt is still going to be there. Unless there is cancellation. 

Whew. It’s just so bleak. And exhausting. I want to switch gears a bit. Obviously you’re super passionate about equity. Particularly for Black folks, and the advancement of our community. And so, if you had to track an origin story, how did you come to this work?

It just sort of happened. I went to law school at New York University. I knew that I wanted to do work that I thought would impact people who look like me, and would make their lives and communities stronger or better. At first, that looked like being a public defender, and being a criminal defense attorney. That did not happen. But, I was a policy major in undergrad, so I ended up in policy. I did a fellowship in the governor’s office in New York where I worked on supplier diversity, and workforce diversity. When I left New York, I came to CRL, and this is an economic justice, anti-predatory lending advocacy agency. And so, I think that it became this idea of, the way that we help our community is, we have to have pathways to wealth-building. And traditionally, there are a few ways that people build wealth. They start businesses, they buy houses, and they go to college. Those are traditional pathways to the middle class, into wealth-building that we still don’t have enough access to. And the access that we do have is not actually leading to the outcomes that we want. And so, I think I came to the work from that sense. I think that it makes no sense that we have so many young Black people, who have “good” jobs, and “good” salaries, but still can’t buy houses or stock – because they have a student debt. And so many other things resulting from being the first to make as much as they do, and needing to support other people in their family or whatever the case may be. And so, that’s just the framework that I work in: how do we get to a place where we have our own wealth?

Is there some part of your background, your education, your experiences, that you feel have teed you up to be able to be successful?

I’ve been very privileged, education-wise. I was able to go to a really good school, the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, on a full scholarship. So, I didn’t have undergrad debt. My first debt was law school debt. And, I went to a school that has a good loan payment program. I’ve been provided a lot of opportunities from the people that I met, to the jobs that I was able to get. So I’ve always felt very privileged in that sense. I know about student debt from my own experience with student debt. But it wasn’t until I got to CRL, and I really dug into that and was like wow, this is a hot mess. I’m managing. I think we might both say we’re managing our student debt, which is fine. But there are so many people who are not. And it was like a light bulb.

I would also say that the way I think is helpful. I think I look at the world from that perspective of having been a little Black girl who was a Pell grant student. But I also had a scholarship for undergrad, as I said – the Morehead-Cain scholarship which covered everything. I actually went to high school in Chapel Hill, with really wealthy people. And I had a little 1990 Subaru in the parking lot, next to everybody else’s BMWs and brand new cars. But I had a really good education. I got to take algebra in seventh grade. So, there are all these different pieces that I think just impact the way you look at things and how you think about privilege, and your own place. And just feeling very responsible for making space for others who come from similar backgrounds but didn’t have as much privilege.

Right, absolutely. Are you excited about anything in particular, about what you could do, or might do next? Do you have a sense of what you want that to be when you grow up? [laughs]

I think next, I would like to work at a foundation. I think working in a nonprofit, we need funders. Being able to see how, when I get to work with Black program officers, or POC program officers, the way that they can move and influence work as people who have control over how money moves. I’ve seen how impactful that can be. And I think that would be my next step.

But I have complicated feelings.  Money is pouring into non-profits like ours. Money is not just pouring into politics. It’s pouring into non-profits. And so, there’s an opportunity beyond just waiting for Congress to do what they need to do. But there’s a part of me that feels that if we took all the money that all these huge foundations, run by wealthy white people, and we just gave it directly to all these Black people and other low-wealth folks, so that they can use it as a down payment to buy a house, or start a business, or invest. That would move the scale so much faster than the incremental change that we’re working for, in policy. So, I feel very, very frustrated a lot of the time, because there are resources that could fix these problems, but we are working in a system that’s slow and resistant to change because of course, the system is working as it was meant to work.

I think the work I’m doing now is important. I love it. I hope I’m having an impact. I hope that it is at least moving the needle some. But I can’t get over the feeling that there is a much more efficient, faster way to move this needle. If we, as an entire society, were actually interested in moving the needle, and not maintaining the status quo.

Word. So let’s end on a high note. What are you most proud of?

Right now, I’m most proud of the work I’ve been able to do during the crisis on federal small business relief. We have been working to increase equity and transparency in the Paycheck Protection program since it was first started last year. The PPP is a huge, now $800+ billion program that was/is shaping up to be basically a huge wealth transfer. With each new round of the program, our advocacy has helped make the program a little more equitable. This can mean the difference for so many Black and brown business owners and our communities. We need to save every single business that we can and that means this program needs to work for them. 

---

Please share this post with a friend, and follow us at @BlackWomenWorkIG!

Natalie Dean, Founder of Whine & Cheese, Inc.

Hi, Natalie! So let’s start with your “9-5” job. What do you do for a living?  

Hi! So full-time I work for the American Federation of Teachers, which is a teachers union based in Washington, D.C. Specifically, I engage our more than 3,000 local affiliates on a special project called Share My Lesson, a website where we give educators free resources to be able to successfully teach, manage, and work with students and make sure they’re successful.

My background is in corporate and crisis public relations. For about eight years of my career, I worked at fast-paced PR firms. When you’re fresh out of college and working in corporate and crisis PR it can be very overwhelming. I remember having to have two Blackberrys at the time, and having to take my work Blackberry on vacation with me. So, you know, when you first start in your career in your early twenties, that’s exciting, right? “Oh, I got an extra Blackberry. I’m traveling for work and I’m employed by the top PR firm and get to work with these major brands.” Then, a few years in, you start to experience burnout, and you think, wait a minute, is this really my dream job? But I felt that I had to take on that persona of having it all together, or to at least look like I do. Because I was too young to look burnt out, plus I was one of very few Black women, the youngest one on my team, and I worked for one of the highest-ranking Black women in that particular office and didn’t want to let her down. I was going to grad school at night. I was in a new city. So I could not fail.

Right. So many people can relate to that, I think. Especially Black women. The “work twice as hard” mentality. 

Right, and so what happened —  I would keep a space heater at my desk and one day I went to bend down to turn it on, and I was in so much pain. I went to the doctor, and she couldn’t figure it out — she thought I pulled a muscle. So she sent me to physical therapy and on the very first session, my physical therapist is like massaging my back and asking me what’s going on in my life. I’m telling her about my job, and grad school, and that I’m trying to buy a house. I’m just going down the list. And she’s like, “Oh, that’s awesome but, um, this isn’t a pulled muscle. This stress is manifesting in your body as this pain you’re feeling.” That’s when I realized, wow — I thought I was doing a good job making it look like I have it all together. But on the inside, my body is screaming, No, you don’t girl! That’s when I decided, maybe I need to start looking at a position that doesn’t require so much of my time. I ended up at an education startup that needed a PR manager. The startup was jointly owned by the Teachers Union and that was the start of my transition.

And so from there, how did your nonprofit Whine & Cheese come about? 

In the midst of that transition I realized how stressed I was, but had been holding it in. I started having conversations with friends and admitting how I felt. Slowly but surely they started admitting the same. Like, girl, adulting is not what I thought it would be! (laughs) This whole job thing is way more stressful than I imagined. I thought I was more prepared! And I realized that while our experiences may not have been identical, the emotions behind them were. So I said, okay, these are conversations that I’ve been having with friends that live in different cities. But I know I need women here in my area, so that we can get together and safely say — sometimes with our words, other times with just a look or a sigh — “I’m struggling. I need help.” And to also say to my network that their support is valued and important to me. And to be able to give the gift of community to each other. So I started an organization called Whine & Cheese, a forum where we could express, reflect and reset without pretense. 

That’s incredible. And how would you describe the evolution of Whine & Cheese over time to what it is today? 

It actually didn’t start as an organization. It started as a casual girl’s night in. I invited a few friends and asked everyone to bring a plus one, if they wanted. We all got together in my girlfriend’s living room. I decided that it was not going to turn into a pity party. So while we were definitely going to complain about all that was going on, we were also going to counter those emotions by recognizing and verbalizing all the ways and reasons we still had to be grateful. So we whined, but then we also cheesed or, you know, named things that made us smile.

I love that! And I’m embarrassed to say I didn’t connect the “cheese”  part of the name until just now. (laughs) So let’s sit with this for a second. Can you describe a little bit more about how some of the first Whine & Cheese sessions went? And when did you decide, oh, this could be a thing? 

So you’re asking me to think back ten years. (laughs) But that first night, and remember it was a group of 11 of us and I had probably invited five. And then, some people brought a plus one.

Right, yeah. 

So, there were familiar faces, but we didn’t all know each other. And that actually provided a space for us to be even more open with one another. The first few gatherings, we went deep. We shed tears, we prayed, we held hands. And it was like, Oh my gosh, this was the relief that I didn’t know I needed. So we started doing that every month, or every other month. There was no real formality to it. Our attire was very “show up as you are.” Like, you don’t have to get cute. This is an opportunity for you to let your hair down. So I also think that helped with the atmosphere of people feeling comfortable.

We were doing that for a couple of months and then, I was on the phone with a girlfriend of mine in New York and I was telling her about it and just how helpful it had been. And she said, “Oh, I want to start that in New York.” And I was like, uh no, it’s mine. (laughs) And then it couldn’t have been a day or two when God was like, how could you see how beneficial this has been for the women that you’ve been getting together with and not share this with other women? It was as though He was saying, like, how dare you? So I said okay, I hear you loud and clear. I put a format together. The main rule is that you start with your whine and you end with your cheese. So we’re always ending in a space of gratitude. And I called my friend back up and I said, “Here it is, it’s yours. Run with it!” And since then, she told a friend who lived in Charlotte, who told a friend who lived in Atlanta. And well, we’ve launched over 30 branches since. 

Wow! Congratulations.

Thank you! Thank you. It’s interesting because we’ve really not done a lot of promotion. Everything has been organic. It’s been a lot of word of mouth, which confirms for me that this is a need that women have. And initially, it was all women, whoever wanted to join. At some point, though, I had to acknowledge that the women who were showing up were Black women, between the ages of 25 and 40 at the time. They were the ones who needed this space the most. For a long time, I was hesitant about saying this is an organization for Black women because I didn’t want it to feel exclusive. But at the end of the day, this is who is showing up. So why not create a space that calls us out and calls us in?

Yes. That is so awesome. And is it still, I mean, if someone else were to show up, I’m just curious…?

They’re welcome, but with an understanding of the space. . .I’m trying to figure out how to word this. You are welcomed as a woman, but most of the resources and the conversations are geared toward those who identify as Black women. So if you can find your footing in this space — the way Black people have had to for so long — then you are more than welcome. But I decided to be true to the women who showed up for this. as our membership evolves, our offerings will reflect that, but for now this is what it is. 

Right. And so how did you come into the role of spacemaker?  It can be very hard to do. There’s a delicate way of having to kind of manage different personalities and needs. What do you think prepared you to step into that role?

I wish I had a really good answer for you on that one. It’s  like the Maybelline tag line, you know. Maybe she’s born with it. (laughs) I feel like, you know, innately since I was a young girl, I’ve been a connector. I’m very much introverted, but when I find my people, I turn up and turn on. When I like your energy, I’m just like, come be a part of my people. I just adopt friends and family along the way. I think that part of me has also translated into professional spaces. I’m the colleague who, people — specifically Black women, but, others as well — will come to and say, “Hey, do you have five minutes? I just need to think through this idea.” Or, you know, “I need another perspective on this.” And it’ll become a closed door, hour-long conversation by the time we’re done. So I can’t pinpoint what prepared me for Whine & Cheese other than God and what He placed in me, you know? 

What do you think you’ve personally gained from Whine & Cheese, as a participant?

Oh, gosh. It has given me some amazing relationships. The very first branch that I launched, we were together for six and a half years before there were life changes and relocations. And then, I ended up starting another branch. So, as a participant it’s given me lifelong friendships and bonds. Your friendships are a reflection of who you are, and usually you pick friends that feel safe or that you share some commonalities. But to be able to connect organically with women who you may not have been friends with otherwise, I think has given me a greater perspective and understanding of myself, and opened me up to new and unexpected things. These women have been able to pour into me in a way that I have just never felt before. And that’s not a knock to my day one friends, but there’s something special about being able to form friendships as adult women.

Yes! Yes, that’s so tough!

And, you know, there’s no pretense with Whine & Cheese. There’s no, what can you do for me? It’s just, I want to see you win, sis. And that gives me a renewed hope. When I see that among women — who I believe are the head of society, the changemakers — I get a renewed hope for what this world can be. And, then, I’ve been introduced to so many other gifts and talents that either they poured out, or that have been brought out of me. And just having this cheerleading squad. There’s a  whole list of benefits.

Incredible. I mean, what a wonderful space you’ve created. So, how can women get involved? 

That’s a good question. So to join Whine and Cheese is very simple. Just go to our website https://foreverywhine.org/, and sign up. In light of the pandemic and other life changes that have kept us apart, I've been searching for a way to bring us all together on a safe, yet personal level. So recently, we launched a mobile app to connect women in the same area and around the country. We’re a non-profit organization now, which I decided to incorporate in 2014, so a portion of the membership fee is tax deductible. Once it’s safe, if members want to start a branch, or small group, with other members in their city, that’s certainly an option and points back to the foundation of our organization — being able to move away from the screen and interact in person. 

Once someone decides they want to start a branch, I would schedule a call with her to be sure that this is the right fit. Not so much to vet them, but because there is a responsibility one must have to the collective when deciding to facilitate a safe space for women. So we’ll have a conversation, and then I’ll walk them through the very easy process of getting started. I literally have a framework for them to follow. Within the app, we share everything from funny memes and songs that get us amped, to affirmations and daily devotionals. We host regular events via Zoom that help achieve our personal and professional goals and we also have an annual retreat where we can get together for a long weekend to bond and build community. The last retreat was in this beautiful 15-bedroom villa in Orlando. We had so much fun! So after the country tackles the Coronavirus, we will be planning the next one. So yeah, that’s how it works!

Wonderful. This was incredible and I’m so impressed with what you’ve built and how you’re managing it. Thank you so much for sharing, Natalie!

Of course. Thank you!

Natalie (center) and members of Whine & Cheese.

---

Please share this post with a friend, and follow us at @BlackWomenWorkIG!

Vivian Duker, Corporate Attorney

Hi, Vivian! So the first question is always, what do you do? And it doesn’t have to just be your nine to five. Obviously, you have other things going on. So, in whatever way you understand it, please share what you do.

My day job is as a corporate attorney. I currently work for a mid-sized law firm that has about 260 attorneys. I do mostly mergers and acquisitions, advising companies on sales and purchases of other companies. I mostly do it on the buy side, so my client is usually buying another company. I also do general corporate, which is pretty much advising companies on random things that come up day to day for any business that they might have. This spans the universe from, “We really want to terminate somebody, but we need to assess the implications around it,” to “We want to understand the process for adding people to our board of directors.” So, that’s what I do from 7:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. Some days I come home and I still have energy, and I will work on my budding fashion business that I’ve been trying to build on and off for ten years now.

Wow. That’s a lot going on!

Yes, girl. Especially being a lawyer, and because I picked one of the hardest possible legal paths. Nobody in their right mind does mergers and acquisitions and also tries to have other passions. You do this kind of work because you love it. And I don’t. Truthfully, I don’t really love it. I just love the process of doing something really hard. I love feeling like, there’s no way I can get that done, and then somehow I figure it out. So, balancing that has been challenging. But, a blessing has been that during COVID, it’s just created – weirdly – space to focus on other things.

Can you share more on those other things ?

The fashion business is called TLDR. My target market is specifically Black women, who work a lot and don’t want to have to think so hard about what they’re wearing. So, it’s no-nonsense pieces that integrate really easily into anyone’s closet. That’s my one baby. My other, new baby is Verified Black. The idea of Verified Black is to push social media platforms to implement a special verification process for Black businesses. And for the check mark, instead of it being blue, to be black so that you know you’re buying a Black-owned product. The verified accounts would have been vetted and confirmed as having a majority Black shareholding. Hopefully, that will drive traffic to Black businesses. It was born out of the sense that Black businesses need revenue, need exposure, need support. A lot of the existing frameworks around how you market yourself are disadvantageous to Black businesses because one, you need a lot of money to be able to put on an effective marketing campaign. Two, if you’re on social media, you have to be able to get verified to get more visibility. The metrics work against you because you almost have to have existing visibility and exposure in order to get verified, and a lot of Black businesses aren’t in that position. I think it’s only 2% of Black businesses in the U.S. now that have more than just one employee. Which is an indicator of, can you even afford to market yourself? So right now, Verified Black is a whole movement around amplifying Black businesses, which we hope will grow into something that actually makes Instagram address the issue.

That is so amazing, and much needed. Can you just share a little bit more about your background, and how you decided to get into corporate law. And then we’ll step a little bit more into some of your other endeavors.

Okay. So I was born in Ghana, and I lived there until I was in high school. And then, my parents sent me to the U.S. to get a better education, along with my brother. Anyone who has immigrant parents, especially African immigrant parents, will tell you that really, they’re like “OK, this costs a lot of money to do. So, you’re going to go be a doctor, or an engineer, or a lawyer.” They’re not trying to hear about your little fashion dream, or your cute painting hobby. They feel like you can just do that on the weekends. So, I said, all right – law sounds kind of cool. I like to argue and at the time, I really, really liked reading, which I still do but now I’m mostly reading stuff for work and not for fun. At the time, though, it felt like the natural path for me.

I went to high school in New Jersey, then I went to UNC-Chapel Hill, where I met you and all the wonderful people. I majored in economics, and I unofficially minored in African American studies. And, when it was time to do the thing I was supposed to do, I took the LSAT. I didn’t score as high as I wanted to because, even then, I knew it was something that I wasn’t passionate about. I was just checking the box. Then I got to law school. And the image in my mind of the attorney that I wanted to be, was very much centered around New York City, and a really cute suit, click-clacking down the street. And I was like, OK, corporate attorneys do that so that’s what I’ll do. In law school, I did make a point to explore all the other stuff just to make sure. So, I threw myself into litigation activities to see if I wanted to be in a courtroom. Or if I wanted to be in front of people speaking all the time. And it was just a solid no for me. So, afterwards I just focused my attention on getting into corporate law.

After law school, I worked for a judge for two years. Then I went back to Ghana, got barred there. And then, that was actually my first exposure to corporate practice. Because I worked for an all-women, woman-owned firm in Ghana, that does cross-border acquisitions. And, I got the coolest mentor. She’s fantastic. But she taught me pretty much everything that formed the foundation of my corporate law practice. And then, I just came back to Baltimore and continued down this path.

I love that it was an all-women firm. That’s so cool.

Yep. A team of twenty-six and all the lawyers were women. She always joked that we had to get better about recruiting men, but I loved it.

Wow. Oh my goodness – what an amazing experience that must have been. So at this point, you’ve checked all the boxes. When did you realize that is what you were doing – just checking boxes?

Ooh – freshman year of college. I have never been super interested in the education process. It’s weird, because once I learn a thing, I’m really glad that I learned it. But the process of learning, it always felt so constrained and artificial to me. And I could tell from the beginning, that I was doing a thing that I didn’t care so much about. I was going to my philosophy class and doing all of these requirements at UNC, because this institution needs to make money so you have to do all of these things. And, I had to pick a major that made me sound serious for law schools. But what I really would have loved to major in is art, or fashion, or something that I was actually interested in. And so, I think from college, I very clearly knew that I was checking a box, and it reflected in my work. It always felt like work, and it has felt like that pretty consistently since then. The moments in which it doesn’t feel that way is when I’m actually impacting people with things that matter. Verify Black doesn’t feel like work. Working with Black-owned businesses doesn’t feel like work. Making clothes that Black women will wear, and that will make them feel beautiful, doesn’t feel like work. Creating feels good.

Tell me more about what your schedule looks like overall, including your nine-to-five, and all of these creative endeavors?  That’s a lot to manage plus the mental shift that is required.

So, unfortunately, I don’t really have a schedule that’s consistent. Mergers and acquisitions is mostly deals. So, if you have a deal that’s ongoing, and deals usually span anywhere from six weeks to maybe six months, you’ll be really busy. At any given point, I’m on at least three, and at most I’ve been on eight at once. So it’s insane, and then a deal will wrap up and there’s a little more free time to do other things.

When I first got this job at my current firm, I felt the burden to really prove myself and establish that, as a Black woman, I can do this. Because Black women don’t go into M&A practice. Generally, the numbers of Black people in law are low. And then, when we do go into the law, understandably, we’re more oriented towards justice-based areas of practice. Or at least, developing skills that lend themselves to that. So, we are more likely to litigate. And then, if we’re going to do transactional work, we’re going to do labor and employment. Because that feels more people oriented, and we can actually make a difference with people who are being treated unfairly. So, at the bottom of the list is M&A. And then, of course, for Black women, all of the cards are stacked against us. So, by the time I got to do M&A, it was like, oh, I’m really here now. And I threw all of my time and energy into work. I would get in at seven in the morning. I’d be there until midnight, one o’clock. I was living there. I had an air mattress in my office just in case.

So this past year, I’ve really had to learn to say no. First, for my own mental and physical health. But then, also, being disciplined about pursuing the things that really mattered to me. There are times where I would usually say, “Yeah, I could totally take on that deal,” on top of the four that I was already doing. Now I say, “No, I’m maxed out.” Then I still have to deal with my own imposter syndrome, and feeling like this decision will probably make them feel I don’t work hard, or I’m not good enough. I remind myself, OK, there has to be a limit to how much you’re willing to sacrifice the things that you care about, and your body, and your mind, just to continue to send a message about you belonging in a particular space. So that’s a long winded way of saying, it used to be really crazy. But now, I try to make sure that I set aside an hour or two every day to sketch or paint or work on the fashion thing. Or I’m just reading something that fits in with all of this stuff that I care about. I like to write a lot. So, I’ll set aside an hour to read scripts of movies that I’ve seen before. It’s so fun. It’s so nerdy, but it’s a lot of fun. It’s a cute little hobby that helps my brain.

So, I’m interested to just hear the origin story of TLDR, and how that came about. And you said you’ve been working on it for 10 years. So, what’s that process been like?

I actually don’t get to talk about this a lot. So, I’ve always been interested in fashion. Ever since I was little, I figured out that you could do two, or three, cuts to your socks, and then turn it into a little off-the-shoulder tube dress for your Barbie dolls. And I was doing that to all my socks when I was little, and my mom was mortified. I would be sketching clothes all over my notebooks.

A friend of mine, who I knew in Ghana, reached out with an idea to set up this online marketplace for African designers. It was the first time that somebody had actually presented me with this tangible opportunity to do this thing I’ve always been obsessed with, and it would also create opportunities for people. So, we started working on this idea together. And then, for reasons why startups fall apart, it just didn’t work out. But, it was part of the reason why I moved back to Ghana. Because, I really wanted to look into it, and figure out if it was feasible. I was reaching out to a lot of designers, gathering a lot of information and realized the biggest barrier to the thing that we were trying to build was that Ghana and most African countries really do not have reliable garment production. Or supply chain mechanics for their fashion lines. So, you have people producing these capsule collections, of just a few pieces per style, because that’s all they can afford to do. Or they’re selling it in a bespoke way — so you place an order, then they make the product. That was not a sustainable model for the thing that I was trying to do. So, my big dream is to be able to create African-based production facilities, which actually benefit these designers. But that’s an expensive dream. TLDR was my idea to fund this bigger dream. Because, I’ve always been able to design easily. I’ve been in an accelerator for fashion businesses. So, my hope is to just translate those skills into a smaller thing, that can slowly start to build some revenue to do the work that I really, really want to do in Ghana. And, eventually all of Africa. That’s the big goal. It’s been a long-ass journey, but it’s also half the reason I keep my job. Because I have to fund this dream.

That is really compelling and I love that it involves all of these skills you’ve acquired and are acquiring, and has this incredible equity orientation. It all connects. That’s really dope. So, as you think ahead five years, or whatever feels right to you – what’s next? What are you excited about for the future?

So, I’ve been grappling with this question, in all of the quiet time during COVID. So, my goal is to transition from practice to fashion or some kind of creative-adjacent work eventually. I don’t know that I can work at this pace, at this level of intensity, and in these stressful conditions, for much longer. But then, there are other things about what I’m doing… there are student loans. Lots of them. And I also feel a responsibility as a Black woman to make partner. Not so much for me, but because when I entered this space I had no Black women mentors who are in corporate. And there are so few Black women who are partners at a top 200 firm. I recognize the whole concept of, ‘you can’t be what you can’t see’. And being in this space, I understand the importance of having the voice of a Black woman in the room. When I go speak at law schools, or I meet people at the Black Law Student Association, and they say “You do corporate? For real?” I’m like, “Yes and you can, too. You’re going to work a lot, but you’re smarter than everybody who’s doing it. I promise you. You can totally do it.” So at least if I make partner, I will be able to say, I did it, and I really did it for real. And then maybe I can put this part of my life to bed, and go do things that I love.

Is there anything I haven’t asked? Is there something that you think is super critical, particularly for Black women who are professionals or aspiring lawyers, that we haven’t discussed?  

I do want to echo something that you said before the interview, about community, and having a community of Black women. And how impactful that has been. Because a lot of times when you take on these really daunting things, it can feel really insular. I was the only Black woman in my group, for a really long time. But, every time I would get around other Black women, who are all basically living parallel experiences, or dealing with the same kind of imposter syndrome, or the micro-aggressions – just all the craziness that just comes with working in corporate America. Those moments for me, were so affirming. I don’t even have to say much, they just get it. Because, we’re dealing with the same things and there’s this tacit understanding of support, and constantly being pushed by these people. People don’t understand just how nourishing that is, to have that. And so, I think that’s something that I want to echo. That’s been a really, really key part of my growth process. You just need those friends that are dope, who really get it. Build that community.

Yes, yes, yes. And on that note, it’s a wrap! Thank you, Vivian.

---

Please share this post with a friend, and follow us at @BlackWomenWorkIG!

Yemi Adewunmi, Co-Founder and Chief Product Officer, Civic Eagle

Hi Yemi! Can you describe what you do?

Sure. My current role is Co-founder and Chief Product Officer at Civic Eagle. It’s a startup company that I co-founded with my business partners. We build software as a service, for companies and organizations that need to track legislation, and organize their policy management workflow. It’s a pretty niche product for people who are policy professionals – policy analysts, lobbyists, government relations, state and government affairs teams. We work with companies and non-profit organizations. As a co-founder, my role consists of a lot of things. But, if I were to say what my trade or skill is, it’s product design.

Product design is a relatively new category in the industry. It is the process of designing the technology tools that we use day-to-day, though it can include technology and non-technology products. Products can range from a software solution, like what my company designs and sells. Or, for example, it can be a notebook that is a product that you design and sell physically. Beyond just my job title, my passion is designing and developing great products. And what that really is about these days is usability. It encompasses a mixture of technology and also psychology because usability is about human behavior. Then there’s the visual design component of it, which I love as well. I do a lot of what they call user interface design (UI design). Because my company sells software, my role is to figure out how to market it, and put it in front of the right people to purchase it, use it, and enjoy it. So, it’s a mixture of creative arts but then strategy, as well.

Awesome. That’s such a clear explanation. And so, you mentioned that you have a passion for building products. Where did you develop this passion?

Growing up, I really wanted to be a lawyer. I actually started my career in policy and politics.  My family was really engaged in my community, and we understood the value of the public sector. So I was always attracted to law, to debate, to right versus wrong. But in college, I had less and less of a passion to go into the legal profession. When I graduated, though, I did get a job in policy—a cousin of law—and I thought that was actually more compelling. Working in policy is really about coming to the table with all the interested parties, and figuring out a solution to the problem. Nowadays, of course, it’s political and can get nasty, and it’s not nearly as accessible to people as it should be. But, typically, what a lobbyist or advocacy organization or policy analyst is doing is designing a solution to a problem, via law. And so, I think I’ve always understood the product mentality.

How did you go from policy, to then end up in product design?

After college, I ended up in Albany working in the state legislature, focused on the higher education committee. I was still in grad school, working to get my Master’s of Public Administration. At that same time, I was trying to explore my creative interests. I was getting into photography and graphic design. That’s when I met my current business partner. He had an idea around using technology to get people engaged in civic issues – using technology for clarifying these issues for everyday people.

When he initially assembled the team, I came in as a policy person but I also had all of these creative skills. And so, I just started evolving into a designer. We started a company, essentially, on nights and weekends when we would just jam. We would think through what the app would look like, and what we wanted it to do. We were very amateur. We had one engineer on the team, and he was a great engineer. But, none of us had ever built something from scratch. As I said before, all my life, I’ve liked leading projects and solving problems. I just stepped up. What we were doing involved a great combination of my technical skills in policy, as well as my creative skills in design. But there was a lot I didn’t know. It was the first time I was really encountering UI design. So I taught myself what I needed to know, and I’ve been blessed with opportunities to learn on the job.

I decided to make a move into design and leave politics. I was able to get a job at a small design agency in New York City, and then I moved onto another job at a small startup. And then from there, I got a position at a slightly larger startup. I was able to leverage my experiences to get each subsequent role which ultimately rounded out my experience as a product designer.

One of those startups is Civic Eagle?

Nope, those were all full-time roles that paid my bills, and allowed me to learn really important skills in product, design and startup culture. Civic Eagle was something we worked on during nights and weekends; we bootstrapped the company for the first three years, and it wasn’t until we got into our first accelerator in 2018 that I was able to go full-time with Civic Eagle.

We have gone through some great accelerator programs, and have brought on some great investors. And, each step of the way, it’s been an opportunity for me to learn more. I’m very bookish. If I don’t know something, I’ll do the research and try to learn. I’ll read a book, or watch a new video, or talk to new mentors about how to apply my learnings to what we’re working on with the company at the moment. It provides me with a lot of range. For example, right now, I’m a de facto Chief Marketing Officer. I’ve never been in that role before, but that’s what is needed of me given where we’re at as a company.  

How have you educated yourself? And how do you continue to educate yourself, and stay on top of things?

I learned a lot from the Internet, of course. Just using free resources online and YouTube to find what I need to learn. But, it goes back to doing the research. There were so many boot camps in NYC. There was General Assembly and Flatiron School and they hosted lots of free events. I tried to attend as many free or low cost workshops and events as I could in the city. That’s part of the reason why I moved to New York City from Albany. Albany didn’t have weekly fireside chats with product designers — stuff like that happens all the time in NYC. When I moved there, the product design industry was pretty new. There weren’t lots of textbooks or alumni of university programs that I could go and talk to about this kind of stuff. But what is nice about the product design space, or more broadly the software development and technology industry, is that there is this open source mindset for making information available. You have to be hungry and go find it, but it’s there.

As I was sharing, this past quarter, marketing has been a huge thing for me, and for my company. So, we built the product and have the essentials that we need, and we’re continuing to iterate on the features. Now we’re at a point where we can turn on marketing, and get eyeballs on the app, and on our website, and try to convert leads into customers. Now I’m trying to learn marketing, and it’s different because we’re selling software to a business – business to business SaaS sales. And so, the things that I know about marketing are mostly around consumer products, and things that I purchase myself. I might say, “Oh yeah, I liked the way that Sephora sold me that lipstick. Let me try to apply that strategy to what I’m selling.” That’s something that you could do if you were also selling a consumer product. But, as B2B SaaS it’s a bit different. The best way for me to learn and educate myself in the areas that I’m not strong in is to read and learn from other people’s experiences, and then, figuring out how it applies to what I’m working on. I’ve really appreciated websites like HubSpot, which does marketing automation and has tons of free content, blog posts, webinars, videos. A lot of the time I go to the blogs of experts, that’s where I get information from.

What about mentors? Do you have a group of people you turn to, who can help you address some of your knowledge gaps, or troubleshoot solutions?

It’s so important to have a network of people that you can tap into. People often refer to mentorship in a way that’s kind of cliche, like having a fairy godmother who guides your career path. I haven’t experienced mentorship like that, but I do have a network of incredible people who help me talk through specific types of problems. 

When you reach out to someone with a specific ask, and you show that you’ve done your own initial research, and you’ve done your part to get the answer, I have found that people are very willing to help you. So, I definitely don’t think that you need to have a mentor per se. I would say that it’s important to have a great network of people you can reach out to who are skilled in very specific things. I’m not going to go to the same person for advice on digital marketing, that I do for HR help. I would also recommend keeping your expectations in check. Don’t expect them to give you a solution to your exact issue. But ask them for perspective, what did you do in a situation like this? How have you done X, Y, and Z? Can you tell me about a time when you had to deal with this X, Y, Z problem? That’s been my approach over the past few years. And, as the company has grown, we’ve been blessed to have access to an even larger network of incredible people. I also extend my help to others and like to give advice where I can. 

What do you find most meaningful about the work that you do?  

There are so many things I love about what I do. I honestly could not have planned the way my career path has turned out. I spent a lot of my life studying and working in policy. And what we do now at Civic Eagle, I’m still working in policy, but in a really cool, innovative way. And, I get to flex all the skills that I enjoy using and I get to do it on my own terms. My two co-founders — any in a way that responds to how we see the world. We, as a company, have all agreed that we’re going to challenge the status quo. We’re going to challenge traditional notions of work. We don’t want people to have to be confined by traditional labor rules around vacation, or promotion, or organizational structure. We want to try to challenge these notions of business and profitability and success as much as possible. One of the company metrics that we keep up with is that a percentage of our customers have to be mission-aligned with us. That means that those organizations have to support increases in civic engagement, increases in democratic participation, because we want our product to be in the hands of people who are doing good in communities.

Now, of course, we are constrained by the nature of a funding company and what it takes to operate and staff a tech company. We are a venture capital-backed company. So, we do have pressures from investors and just the economic market in general. But, ultimately, we do get to determine our own destiny. And I’m blessed that I have business partners that also take pride in the fact that we don’t have to do it the way that it’s traditionally done. We can prioritize happiness and wellness for our team.

That’s incredible. Wonderful. Thank you so much, Yemi.

Melissa Harris, Public Education Executive

Hi, Melissa! We’ll start with the first question, which is always the same question – what do you do?

So, I am the Chief of Staff for the Office of the First Deputy Chancellor, with the New York City Department of Education. My part of the Department of Education is responsible for all the schools. So, all 1,600 district schools. We’re responsible for support and supervision of the schools and their principals to get the work done. I’m new to this role of chief of staff, and right now I think of it as air traffic control in one regard, ensuring that we are implementing policy with fidelity, and that the First Deputy Chancellor has what he needs. And then, I also serve as Senior Advisor to the First Deputy Chancellor to ensure the decision-making process is thorough and that the right resources and supports are going to schools.

Can you just share a little bit about what a normal day looks like for you? I know that’s a really hard question, but if you were to take the average of your days – what does that look like?

Well what’s interesting is that since I just took on this role, I’ve only been the Chief of Staff in a virtual setting. So what my day looks like is, I am probably up by six o’clock. I start by checking and responding to emails. Then I give myself a little bit of downtime, but my first meeting is usually around eight o’clock in the morning. And then I go straight through until six in the evening. I’ll probably rest a little bit more, and then I’m on email from nine until around 11 o’clock at night.

Wow. And what types of issues or projects are you dealing with?

Right now, of course, COVID-19. We are reinventing what education looks like at this point in time. And so, my day consists of a lot of policy work, looking at existing policies that govern schools, and reshaping policy in a remote space. Additionally, it entails a lot of going back and forth between different issues that are coming to us from our school leaders. For instance, everyone’s virtual right now, and we had to ensure that any teacher that needed technology, had technology. Plus, whenever the mayor makes a commitment, or the chancellor makes a commitment, it’s up to my team and others to actually implement whatever was committed.

You’ve had a really long career at the department, right?

Yes, so, I have had a super long career with the DOE. And what’s actually funny is, it’s not really a long career. But for us, for the younger set, it seems as though I’ve been there forever, even though there are actually people who have been there 20, 30, 40 years. But for me, this is my fifteenth school year in the Central Office, but I have worked in education or for the Department of Education, in total, for about 17 years.

When you look back, do you feel there are any through lines or themes across your experiences that feel especially salient?

Two things come to mind. The first is not being scared of change. I think that in my entire career at the Department of Education, something’s always changing, and I’ve always been able to just be flexible and lean into the discomfort. I think that’s how I’ve managed to continue to excel in my career at the DOE. Because, I lean into change and discomfort.

Second, I am always utilizing what I know, and being very intentional in learning the things that I don’t know. So every position that I’ve had at the DOE, I’ve gotten in the door because I have a skill, and I know something. But then, while I’m in the position, there’s this search for what is it about this role that I don’t know, and how can I become the master of it? And once I master it, then I keep moving, to continue to master more.

You and I worked in government together, so that was obviously part of my career, and now I’m in nonprofit. I think a lot about how to encourage young people to go into public service. There’s a lot of really rewarding and interesting work that affects communities that look like us. And so, how would you speak to a young person about why it is important to think about public service as a potential career path?

I think that there are very few places where you can have the impact on your community like you can in government. And so, when I look at my own purpose, I recognize that my purpose and everything I do are focused on how I can better my community. And, in bettering my community, I need to be able to have a voice within policymaking decisions, because I am recognizing that the nucleus of control actually sits within these government agencies. And we have to have more people that are like us, that are from our community, that lived within the community, that are actually in these seats of power to create change.

What do you think are some of the challenges behind driving change from within that nucleus?

Not everyone is here for the same thing. Everyone may have a similar purpose where, for example they want to help educate children. But, everyone has different pathways to get there, and they have different experiences that they speak from. And so, that’s what makes it difficult in some regards. A lot of times when you get into the senior level of government, there are a lot of people who are making decisions that are not actually from or currently living in the communities that they’re looking to impact. So what has been difficult for me, as I’ve navigated my way through, is not only am I from but I still live in the same community that I grew up in. And I see things differently than other people. And so, I feel that I had to fight a lot in order to get people to see things the way I see it. Because, the policies that are being created are being created for me, for my neighbors, for my daughter.

Yes, yes, yes. Can you share more on your education experience growing up?

I went to Catholic school. For my parents they didn’t feel that they could send me to the school down the street. And so, my working class parents had to spend their money to send me to Catholic school. Because safety was one of the most important things, but also they didn’t feel that I would get a quality education at my local public school. And so, part of the reason why I’m in education right now is because my parents didn’t have a choice. Or, I should say, they didn’t have a free choice. As taxpayers, you should be entitled to a great education in public schools. And so, day in and day out, that’s the focus that stays center of mind for me. There are so many other families like mine who can’t afford to make that choice my parents made for me. Most families depend on the local public school, and it’s up to policy makers to ensure that those are great schools. What keeps driving me every single day is, when I had my daughter, I moved back to the same community that I grew up in. And the school that I was zoned to, is the same school that she was zoned to. And I still wouldn’t send her there. And so, every day you wake up with more work to do, because you realize that until you have a system of high quality schools, families don’t get the choices they deserve to have when making decisions about their children’s education.

How did you end up in government? Was that the intention, or did you just land there?

It was the intention. So, for me, I grew up in the church. My pastor was really political, and he said that politics is power. And in order to change your community, then, you had to be in the seat of power. And so, that being said, I can remember being in the fourth grade, and very clearly knowing that I was going into education to try and change my community. And then, every step that I’ve taken since high school, has been very intentional, to get to where I am right now. I’ve always been very clear on wanting to sit at the intersections of politics, policy, education, and power. 

I love that. You’re such an intentional person! So, can you talk a little bit about the role of mentorship in your career? And this can be both as you’ve experienced being mentored by other people, as well as mentoring others yourself.

I’ve been fortunate enough to have amazing mentors throughout my entire career. I actually can go back to being in college, and being able to intern with incredible women of color who took me under their wing. They taught me about people, and that while those people may not respect you, they have to respect your position. Those lessons were really impactful to me. And throughout my career, I have always sought out people, not just women, but also men, all races, to guide me into positions that I want to be in. To this day, I employ what could be considered a council of elders –  a group of people that I depend on, to give me career and life advice.

Because I’ve had such strong mentors, I try to be that. So, any given day, you can find me talking to people that are junior in their career – they could even be at the same level as me – and just trying to mentor and support them. I’m very big on development and helping people to lean into their strengths, and recognizing where they have gaps and figuring out how to fill those gaps. I just love to do it. I love helping people.

In cultivating those relationships, can you share more on how you initiated them? How do you start?

Just ask. It’s amazing what happens. You can randomly just be in a meeting with people, and then afterward, you send a follow up email. You might say “I’m really interested in learning more about your career and how you navigate spaces to get to where you are.” And people really enjoy talking about themselves. And so, usually that is the first thing that I do. I like to make sure that people understand that there was something about them that made me feel connected. A spark. Then I just go from there.

I don’t initially do the “Can you be my mentor?” conversation. Usually, it goes from me seeking you out, getting to know a lot more about what you’re doing, figuring out where I can be a support. Then, after a while, once I realize the person is really investing in me, I do go through the formal ask. I’ll say something to the effect of, “I would love for you to mentor me and give me advice on X, Y, and Z.” When you talk about being intentional – and I was discussing understanding your gaps earlier – this is where you lean in and talk to your mentor about those gaps. Being open to accepting feedback from them on how to improve. Something that I find helpful is when I’ve identified mentors within the workplace, I actually tell them to give me feedback in real time. And so, they may not be my direct supervisors, but they could be in meetings with me, and afterward I’ll say “Can you tell me what I could have done better there?”

What is some of the best advice you’ve received?

Setting boundaries is one. And so, something that someone told me clearly, early on in my career, is that I have to set boundaries around everything. Set boundaries around your time, ensure that you’re always taking and making time for yourself.

The other piece of advice I would share, especially as we navigate the space of government and being people of color, is what I shared earlier: you may not respect me, but you’re going to respect my position. And so, I am always very clear on who I am, who I am within this organization, and how people will and will not interact with me. Throughout my career, whether it was race, or it was age, or it was being a woman, people would treat me a little bit differently than they would treat others. And I had to learn how to really assert myself in a certain way to ensure that their treatment of me aligned to the position that I carried within the organization.

You’re such a boss. OK, my final question: what are you most excited about for public education?

I think the most exciting thing is that in 2020, everything has turned on his head. We are at the dawn of a new day. It is exciting to me to know that I am a creator of the future of education. And what we create over this next year, over these next five years, will actually be the foundation for generations to come.

Awesome. Thank you, Melissa!

Melissa, with her daughter.

---

Please share this post with a friend, and follow us at @BlackWomenWorkIG!

Chloe Ford, U.S. Campus Diversity, Manager, American Express

Hi Chloe! Can you describe what you do? 

Absolutely. I am a manager for American Express. I manage all of the campus recruiting diversity efforts which is actually a newly created role. When we think about campus recruiting, we’re specifically talking about early talent. So, anyone who is in undergrad pursuing their undergraduate degree, or their MBA...we have a number of different programs. I primarily managed the U.S., but now, my role has spanned over into assisting the U.K. because they don’t have anyone who works in this capacity. Our efforts involve first creating a strategy, then implementing it, and then executing it – all to figure out the best ways to reach diverse populations, engaging them, recruiting them, and retaining them.

One of the things that I’m always trying to push for in regards to my team, and stakeholders I communicate with, is what I refer to as, "direct and develop."  We want to direct them to our opportunities, but we don’t want to lose sight of them once they’re in the door. We also want to develop them, so that there is long-term career success within the firm, as well as professional success as a whole. 

Can you describe a little bit more what it looks like in practice to set up a young person for success?

Young people always have an idea of what they want to do. They’ve gone to college, pursued a specific major, joined all of these organizations, interned in various companies. And then, of course, by the time they’re an MBA student, they’re pursuing a particular career path at a very serious level. But truthfully, there are a number of other things required in building out a career trajectory. Often, students pin themselves in a box and they think, Okay, I pursued this degree so I have to stay on this path. As working professionals, we know there is no direct path. So what I like to do is listen to which direction the student thinks they want to go in, and encourage them to explore. What are their interests? How do they want to pursue this particular career goal? Then, I try to connect them with the right people so that they can do that exploration, and see what options may be a good fit, versus me telling them what they should be doing. 

In diverse communities, I don’t know if we know all of the options and opportunities that are available to us in the way that our peers sometimes do. And I think our peers know because of the connections that they have not only through institutions such as universities, but also family connections. Our peers are sometimes beginning to think about their career exploration as young as middle or high school. So, when it comes to diverse professionals, it’s really important to let them know what opportunities are out there that align with their interests. It’s setting them up for success in the right way, by helping them create a network, and then a success plan. Mentorship is required, especially as a diverse professional. Mentorship is anyone who can guide you in the right direction. And there’s sponsorship, which is someone who is in those important rooms, who has a seat at the table, and can identify a number of opportunities that they are able to extend to you to advance your career.

I’m interested to know a little bit more about your own background. Are there any parallels between your own educational and professional background, or your upbringing, and the way that you approach your work with young people?

Well my previous response was me as a young professional. That’s why I feel very passionate about this work. I was a fashion student at North Carolina State University. My concentration was in brand marketing and management. I thought that I wanted to continue in the direction of fashion apparel, or any sort of marketing. I realized, as I started my first job out of college, that I hated it. It was such a blow to my confidence, because I grew up as a kid knowing that I wanted to pursue something around fashion. And so I went to school, did everything that was expected of me. I interned and all of that other stuff. And then, when getting into the textile community after school, my first job out was nothing like I expected. I felt disappointed in myself, and trapped. My parents just spent all this money on school, and now I’ve got to tell them, actually, this is not what I want to do at all. So, I had to muscle up some  hustle. I did a lot of digging internally to determine, Okay, so Chloe, what do you like? What are you good at? And it was definitely a journey. I worked in retail during that time, then I transitioned into recruitment.

Now, I’m at this point where I really feel much more confident. I know what I’m passionate about. And so, I think a lot of my personal experience feeds into the advice that I give students. And I tell them what I experienced. I give them my background so they can know that it’s possible to start in one place and land in another unexpectedly, and it is OK. By no means would I have thought I would be working with any of these financial firms. Had you asked me that 18 years old, I wouldn’t have been able to tell you what a JP Morgan or an American Express was or what they do! (laughs) But that level of transparency is important for the students to hear, and I try to be as honest as possible. 

In your own development, do you feel you’ve received some helpful advice at some critical moments? If you think back to a time where maybe your sense of self or your direction shifted, who was involved and what was said? 

That’s a great question. So many people have poured into my life and I’m very grateful for all of them. I will say the shift really came when I moved to New York, three years ago. That forced me to level up in a way. I was fortunate enough to be in a very unique situation where I actually had two female Black women who were my directors. That’s a very rare occurrence in a financial firm. In North Carolina, most of my direct bosses were white. And so, when I had the opportunity to work under these two Black women, they really took me under their wing. There was such a level of transparency and honesty in how they shared their experiences with me. I actually work for one of them now, which is crazy to come full circle like that. It’s really special to have an older Black woman see herself in you, and you see yourself in her, and to then see how she’s reached the heights that she has reached. Then to have that person say, I see potential in you, is something I cherish. It has afforded me a number of open doors that I’m very grateful for. I’m also very grateful to have a mother who strives for nothing but the best. I have three sisters who have done some amazing things, as well as my grandmothers, my aunts. I now feel that it is my responsibility to do the same, for other women of color, specifically, given the position I’m in. 

Awesome. So what is your biggest takeaway in the role that you’re in currently? How has that helped you think about your next move – what you want to do, or not? How have you refined your future career plans?

Well, I can tell you what I definitely am not interested in. Now that I have cycled through a few spaces in Corporate America, I know deep down inside that this will probably be my last little hurrah. It has proven to be very beneficial in a lot of ways. But especially in the realm of diversity, it can be so deflating. I don’t know if these spaces are really ready for the level of conversations that we need to have to make true change. To your original question, what am I learning? I’m learning that what should be common sense in this work, is still not common sense at all. It can feel that you’re doing very beginning stages of work to educate and expose your colleagues. For example, Black students are everywhere. You don’t have to go to just historically Black colleges and universities, or through specific channels or outreach strategies, to find diverse populations. Black people are multifaceted. Communities of color are multifaceted. Women are multifaceted. And it sometimes feels like you’re running the same play over and over, and that can be really frustrating because it feels like you’re only just tapping the surface. I know that there is so much more, deeper work that we can be doing that doesn’t just impact the business, but also impacts the communities. These large companies have all of this money, and if they just push themselves a little bit further, they can do so much more. Also, I don’t ever want to be the mouthpiece for Black people or communities of color, and that’s something that I battle with here and there. 

What my experiences have shown me, though, is that I’m great at building strategy. Not even bragging about myself or anything like that.

Do it!

I am! (laughs) I’m great with building strategy. I’m great with getting people on my side, influencing people, and then breaking it down at a level where people can understand. I’m also very passionate about students. I really enjoy working with students and young professionals. And so, I know that through all of these opportunities, it’s exposing me to potentially moving into some form of consulting, or going back into academia in some way where I have a direct connection with this population.

And so continuing on that thread, my last question: on the personal front, what are you excited about for your own future? What are you looking forward to?

I don’t know about you, but this whole quarantine has shone a light on some aspects of myself, just personally, that I want to work on. There are things that I have been putting off because of work or I’ll tell myself I’m too busy. And I’m realizing that I have talked myself out of a lot of those things out of anxiety or fear – fear that people will see me in a different light. I think I’m ready to take a leap. I’d love to launch some amazing programs. I’d love to be a voice in conversations that I would have never imagined being a part of. I’m realizing I need to give myself a little more credit. I teeter and wrestle with humility. It may just be upbringing but it’s something I have been thinking about a lot. As women, we’re supposed to always be helpful, accommodating and never boastful, and as a Black woman, it’s just another layer of that kind of conditioning. This quarantine is really shining a light on that thinking, and forcing me to deal with it. Now I think, Well, why shouldn’t I do this thing? I’m realizing, I’m pretty great. What I do is pretty amazing. And if I’m telling students and early talent those affirmations about themselves, I have to be able to also tell that to myself. So, that’s what I’m most excited about, is coming into my full confidence, and being more proud of the work that I’ve put out in the world. And letting the world see it and celebrate it.

That is a beautiful note to end on. Thank you. 

---

Please share this post with a friend, and follow us at @BlackWomenWorkIG!

Sherian Feaster, Behavioral Change Management Consultant

Hi, Sherian! So, tell me what you do!

I am a consultant. I work in our transformational advisory group at KPMG. That means I focus on behavioral change management and work closely with design and project management teams and our tech architects. Our clients are organizations experiencing technology changes in their organizations, and we help them adapt to the new system or systems by enabling their employees to form new behaviors, adjust to new work structures or gain new skills. 

Currently I work on a project in Nashville, for about a year now. I’m on an organizational change management and training team, helping individuals in the state of Tennessee who understand a technology system. Technically our client is the state of Tennessee but my main points of contact are third party facilities and state offices that serve the most vulnerable people in Tennessee. I love change management, but this project is very special because it’s rare that we get to work with an organization that helps people, it’s really gratifying. 

How did you get into behavioral change management?

I always wanted to find something I’m good at. I’m not good at science or math or writing. So I thought, OK, what can I do? I’m good at solving problems, and I’m good at thinking about the big picture. I’m empathetic. Those are things you need to have as a change management practitioner. At first, I tried fashion and worked at a high end retailer. It wasn’t fulfilling but I noticed the way the company interacted with its employees — they had a lot of issues with communication and people management. That experience, in a way, made me aware of how I think about organizations and how people work.

I like that behavioral change management leaves room for theory and interpretation. It’s a weird world where you don’t have to know the answers — you just have to have a plan. It’s OK to say part way through a project, “Hey, the way we are thinking about this isn’t working.” So I get to go back to the drawing board and create a new plan. It keeps me motivated because I do like being creative but I needed to find a way I could step into that. 

I also appreciate that you can do this work in any space. Life is full of change, so everyone is always going to need behavioral change management. You can be a scientist or a design facilitator, or work at a big firm, or in government. You can go into a neighborhood and apply social change methodologies. I think it’s really the way of the future. Tech is changing rapidly and it's everywhere, so someone has to think about how this change can be digestible to people. That’s what behavioral change management is for. 

What does your day-to-day role look like?

I talk to hundreds of nursing facilities, long-term care facilities, and hospitals to identify which of their patients are Medicaid-eligible, and how to get them enrolled. I communicate with these facilities via email and telephone and receive feedback on the technology and how they and their patients are adapting to using it. Next year, we are doing to work with KPMG’s design team to capture the feelings and behaviors influencing how people interact with the new system.

What keeps you motivated?

My clients keep me motivated. I know the work we’re doing is really helping people. So when I have to get on a plane and leave Harlem to go all the way to Tennessee, that’s what I think about. I feel lucky because finding that intrinsic value is rare in consulting. Working with state and local governments is a welcome change. 

And what is your education background? What is required to enter this space? 

I have a bachelor’s in computer science from Savannah State University and a master’s in behavioral change management from The New School.  

Outside of what you’ve shared about how you think, and your education background, is there anything else you feel makes you especially equipped for this work?

I’ve noticed that other people in change management have experienced a lot of change in their personal lives. They may have moved around a lot as a kid, faced a lot of obstacles as an adult. When I think about people in this space — and you can lump in people who work in learning and development, human resources — they’re often a people person. I also think a common characteristic is grit, where you can go through these series of changes that feel bad or weird, and overcome. It’s funny because we show up to our clients’ offices who might be engineers or tech people, and they’re like “We can tell you’re the change people.” (laughs) We come in like “Hey! How are you? You have kids? You have a dog?” While engaging with them, we watch how people respond, and we are sensitive to how people show up to spaces. That’s different for them.

In my graduate program at The New School, there was an emphasis on social justice learning in how we were taught to consider people, which influences how you bring people into a space and acknowledge them. There’s a thing called a change curve. People experience different emotions during change and make a decision, get it wrong, and change again. So in client engagements, we are aware of how people are, whether they’re comfortable or not. Intuition is important to the job, and to ensure you’re doing this work in a way that is inclusive. I like that at the heart of it all, this work is about relationships. I’m good at meeting people, and I can create trust with people if I want to. So I’m always client-facing. I’m the person who is sent out to talk to the person who won’t get on board because I can connect. 

How does identity show up in your work?

I knew you’d ask that. I’m aware that I’m usually the only Black woman or person at work at KPMG or at a client site, so I’m very conscious of that and I try to be authentic. I’m very honest, and I think that people respond to others who seem confident. Even if you’re being othered, you can still be confident, and that engenders trust. 

Here at the national office, there are almost entirely all white women who graduated from elite universities. I remember a white male colleague looked around at the staff and remarked “Wow, look at all of this diversity.” A staff full of 25-year-old white women is not diversity, which I told him. So I do ensure that I show up as myself, and ensure that they understand that I do hold a certain perspective as a Black woman. I’ve also flagged that I’m the only Black woman on my team with my supervisors and other senior leaders. Those candid conversations have paid off, because I’m now being asked to think about how we go about creating a diverse and inclusive workplace at KPMG. It’s also interesting because in being vocal, it has attracted conversations around identity with other underrepresented groups. I have colleagues who are of Asian descent who have sought me out and want to meet and talk. I think it’s important to give people that space, and I’m glad I’ve become a resource.

Can you share more on what kind of effects you experience within your team setting? 

As I’ve said, I do have a heightened awareness of being singularly represented on my team, and that they’re all white women. They have things in common with one another that I don’t share with them. And it does feel that it affects team dynamics, which forces me to have to bring it up. My boss understands how their kind of cliquishness can be hurtful and tries to help, and I know that she has had discussions with my colleagues that are cast as developmental conversations. I don’t know...sometimes I’m not sure whether I’m just being sensitive or whether my concerns are reasonable and cause for intervention.  

It sounds as though your boss is very supportive, though. Is that your impression? 

Yes, and what is cool about my boss is she is open to upward feedback. I’m able to express to her how I’m thinking and feeling or how I perceive something. I think she’s very self-aware. And although she is also a white woman, she has a diverse background. She’s lived all over the world, she’s not sheltered. And I think that is important for white people who are supervising people who are minorities. Having had some exposure to people who are different allows you to see those individuals as whole people. You’re less prone to making generalizations. I appreciate that my boss is very good at her job, so she isn’t someone where I ever have to wonder whether she got to her position unfairly, and so there's mutual respect. She’s very different from how I’ve experienced white women supervisors in previous roles. 

What do you do for self care and for fun? 

I dote on my hair. I buy all the conditioners — I don’t care about the cost, because my curls will be popping. (laughs) I have my nails done every two weeks, and I have a facial every month. Sometimes I cry in my room just to get out the feelings, or I will talk to my friends to complain — I think that’s important to have people like that in your life. I hang out with my friends every weekend to have fun and just to feel like myself, even if I’m dead tired and don’t need to spend money. (laughs) I always think of this quote I read: “Be yourself, but carefully.” That’s how I feel at work. So when I’m with my friends on the weekend I like to go to Angel of Harlem and listen to ratchet music and know that I’m in a safe space. I’m trying to find real hobbies. Drinking and getting my nails done aren’t hobbies...maybe I’ll try pottery. (laughs)

What are you excited about for your future? What do you see for yourself?

I just did my 2020 career goals at work, which you have to submit. I said that I want to be involved in organizing diversity, equity, and inclusion events at work dedicated to recruiting and retaining people of color. I want to ensure we’re cultivating people of color to have lasting careers at KPMG. There aren’t any women of color in leadership positions, so I’d like to be part of changing that, so I’m excited to be an advocate. And I’m excited to be promoted in my own role and to just continue growing and gaining respect for my work.

---

Please share this post with a friend, and follow us at @BlackWomenWorkIG!

0 LIKES SHARE

Tiarra Nero, Real Estate Marketing Manager

Hi, Tiarra! So tell me, what do you do? 

That’s so loaded. (laughs) I am a creative project coordinator for a marketing firm that focuses on real estate. Basically I manage media placements for clients, whether that’s a feature in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, out-of-home signage such as ads on the subway or the Metro North. I also help to manage and coordinate digital marketing, like pay per click ads, social media, and I work with the creative team to ensure that the ads are representative of what the client is looking for and stays on brand. So I’m constantly working with multiple internal teams and the client, as well. It entails a lot of follow-up, paying attention to details, working with vendors, maintaining a good relationship with all parties. There’s an analytical portion, as well, which requires a lot of data analysis to determine how the marketing campaigns have performed. I also do some billing, processing, and contracts.

That’s a lot! Did you go to school for this?

No, actually. I got here by trial and error. It was helpful because that’s how I figured out what works and what doesn’t, and what I like and what I don’t like. In college I majored in fashion merchandising and design, then received my MBA. While in graduate school, my favorite class was marketing. I didn’t know a lot about that space so when I finished school and entered the fashion industry, I entered on the merchant side which was the more business-minded, financial side. It wasn’t very creative, so I kept that in mind as I sought different positions later. 

Before switching industries, my last role in fashion combined buying and marketing, so that helped open the door for me to establish myself as a marketing professional. I managed all marketing for my department, so that was a great opportunity and a lot of exposure. I wanted to stick with marketing, but I didn’t have a role in mind. I looked at different descriptions and researched areas I was interested in, and this came along. Now I’m in real estate. 

Have you had any individuals who were particularly meaningful in helping you determine your career path? 

Not really. I’ve never had a mentor, though I tend to learn from my immediate managers. I’ve always worked with a lot of strong women, and I’ve watched them and taken their best qualities. I was especially eager to learn from them because they were pretty successful in their own right, and passionate. Outside of work, I learn a lot from grandmother. Once I have an idea of what I want to do, I like bouncing ideas off of her when I’m figuring out my next steps. She came from the legal field, but I am still able to learn from her experiences.  

What career accomplishments are you most pleased with? 

Successfully transitioning into a new field and being able to climb the ranks. I set my sights on account management and project management roles, once I found out those were roles that existed within marketing, which I wanted to transition into. I learned about creative marketing and became really interested in that space. So I did my research, and when I liked the job descriptions I came across, I went for it. In my current role, I go between account management and project management. I’m technically a coordinator but I both manage and coordinate depending on the account. 

Do you feel that your educational experiences and prior job experiences in the fashion industry set you up well for what you do now? 

My work experience has really given me the most to work with and been most beneficial because I didn’t study marketing and only took one related class in graduate school. From those earlier work experiences, I have learned how to follow up and maintain relationships, to be meticulous when reviewing contracts. As far as my education goes, it’s been great in terms of networking and learning from people who have similar roles.

Can you describe your experience in your current role?

There have been pain points and learning curves in transitioning to a new role and industry. That part can be a little challenging, but it’s also exciting when I look back and see how much I’ve learned in five months. I’ve learned so much about the real estate industry. When I look back and remember the things I didn’t know how to do that I can now do on my own and do well—that feels good.

What keeps you motivated?

Money. These bills. (laughs) I would say my ultimate motivation is to make enough money to one day be able to take care of family and treat my loved ones to nice things. I’d also like to travel even more than I already do, and take my mom, step-mom, and grandmother on fully-paid vacations. Just being financially stable, having flexibility and multiple income streams. I don’t have to take care of anyone. No one in my life requires me to help them pay for things, but it’s something that I want to be able to do. 

How do you keep your head right, and your spirit together? 

Working out is huge for me. I work out every day. I always tell people that working out is my coffee. It really helps to get me ready for work. I also enjoy criminal justice shows. (laughs) I know that’s odd but when I need to relax I watch those shows because I know everything will be tied up and resolved in an hour. 

What else are you into? 

Traveling, learning about new cultures, meeting new people. I like to at least go to one new country per year. The last place I visited was the Bahamas, which was cool, but the last place I was really excited to go to was Zanzibar. That was my first trip to the African continent and it was my 30th birthday. The water was so beautiful. 

I have gained interest in stock trading and real estate, given my new career path. I’m really  seeking financial freedom, and I want to learn how to develop a stream of income without having to have a nine-to-five. I think that aspiration stems from being laid off before. I need to be able to have flexibility when it comes to work-life balance, but mostly I just don’t want to be reliant on a traditional job to be OK. 

I love volunteering. I work at food banks a lot, but I also like working toward the restoration of women. I previously volunteered with sex trafficked survivors, and my main passion is working with a segment of my friend’s nonprofit, Project Refuge, which focuses on ensuring that women in this rural area of Uganda have enough sanitary supplies to stay in school. My role is director of women’s protection and empowerment. For these girls, education will really help to change their lives and their economic situation, and I appreciate that doing something so small like access to sanitary products—which we take for granted—can really make a difference. 

What excites you most about your future?

The unknown. Just trying new things and figuring out what works. I’m working towards being able to volunteer while traveling abroad. So I’m setting myself up to not really have to be dependent on a nine-to-five office job and really just manage my time as I see fit, and do things I want to do.

---

Please share this post with a friend, and follow us at @BlackWomenWorkIG!

Kharmika Tillery Alston, Real Estate Broker and Entrepreneur

Hey, Kharmika! So in whatever terms feel best, can you describe what you do?

I’m a real estate broker. I help people buy, sell, and invest in real estate. I sell commercial and residential real estate, including land and leases. I’m also what I consider an aspiring social entrepreneur. I would like for the transactional nature of real estate to translate to real results for people, with a greater social impact. For example, there are people where nobody in their family has owned a house. A woman told me the story of how her grandmother lived in the same house for 35 years and it was considered the family house. When her grandmother passed away she was surprised to learn that her grandmother never owned the home. Or, take millennials, who have had a really tough time accumulating wealth. When the pandemic occurred, our generation  had barely recovered from the recession in 2008/2009, and have remained saddled with student loan debt, consumer debt, or even medical debt. So I’m building a business that supports those who are likely to experience anything from run-of-the-mill discrimination to redlining when buying a home. I work with anyone and everyone — first-generation property owners, millennials, Zoomers, and especially those from marginalized groups who have suffered because of the racial wealth gap. 

I can also share the reason I consider myself an aspiring social entrepreneur. I don’t want to sell real estate at a high level forever. I want to get to the point where the cash flow allows me to contribute to the community philanthropically. I want to disrupt the way nonprofits work in our community. You’ve seen organizations that have one Black person on staff who is of the community. Meanwhile, everyone else at that nonprofit has achieved real wealth and can afford to work for less competitive salaries, or they have a wealthy partner and don’t need to make a high wage at this nonprofit and take that pay cut. I want to disrupt that. I want to promote people from these communities and who are of these communities having a real say in the economic development of these communities. That’s a long-term goal. 

With those particular outcomes in mind, how do you tailor your approach or the way you run your business? How do you make sure you attract that diverse group of people you want to empower? 

I have a website called LiveLoveDurham.com, which is the main way I connect with folks. I’m thinking of overhauling it to focus less on real estate, and more lifestyle or community-oriented. If you look at the blog section, there is lots of curated content to educate people, but on the bio page I’m explicitly announcing my job and brokerage. I think I may take that out because many real estate agents avoid having real conversations around race, class, and ethnicity for fear of violating the Fair Housing Act. We aren’t supposed to discuss protected classes during the transaction. But conversations outside of the transaction on race and class are needed to  move the conversation forward. So I might take off that identifier so that I can discuss the things I want to discuss and how I want to discuss them. LiveLoveDurham.com also has a connected Instagram page, where I say I move past the transactional nature of real estate to have curated conversations and give my insights, not only as a Black woman living here, but also as a millennial. It’s real estate and community development from my vantage point. I also provide a lot of free and helpful content there through my Instagram TV videos. 

How did you arrive at this philosophy of service? 

I was living in Amsterdam, finishing the last leg of what I had intended to be my long-term federal government job. I wanted to start buying real estate, and was wondering where I should buy. I decided I wanted to buy somewhere in a community that I felt part of, and one that I could afford. So then I started looking at the market in Durham more closely, because I went to UNC Chapel Hill nearby for undergrad, and Duke for my master’s degree, and my husband was born and raised in Durham. It felt organic to come back here after living overseas for a few years. I would look at trends and saw there were a lot of articles like “best quality of life in the South,” or “best place for millennials” -- on and on, for entrepreneurship, for women. I thought, Woah, Durham is getting all of these accolades! 

We moved back stateside, to Durham, and I transitioned from my government job to working for a community bank — what they call a CDFI [community development financial institution]. A CDFI is a designation out of the Department of Treasury to essentially indicate that a particular bank serves the community better than, for example, Wells Fargo or Chase, and that’s based on a congressional act. Like you need to better serve the communities where you are physically located by providing valuable services such as mortgages, small business loans, etc. CDFIs began as an answer to that. So I did that for 15 months while I worked on getting my real estate license. What I learned is that Black people and Latinx people to a lesser degree really don’t benefit from all the affluent accolades the Triangle area has been receiving. There’s still really large wealth disparities. I thought, What can I do in my real estate vertical to improve these socioeconomic trends? That is where LiveLoveDurham.com came in, where I began highlighting POC-owned businesses, artists and creatives, and then also providing really distilled tips on real estate that anybody can just read and understand. There is so much information out there that isn’t helpful or is positioned as helpful but is actually intended to drive a profit. There’s so much misguidance. 

You’ve just named a few, but can you share some of the common obstacles people in marginalized communities face in terms of real estate opportunities? What are some of the experiences you’ve noted?

The racial wealth gap prevents people from having capital to invest. Because wealth is relative, there are people in real estate who don’t realize that putting twenty or thirty thousand down on a home is not within a lot of people’s capability. I had a client that inherited $160,000 from her aunt and used half of it to put down on her house. There are people who think that’s run-of-the-mill. Same at the CDFI where I worked after returning to the States. I worked with food businesses, and people would tell me about how they bootstrapped their way to building a business. Come to find out, their parents gave them a $10,000 loan to start the business. That’s a well-documented trend. The Pew Research Center says that friends and family invest $90 billion per year in their loved ones’ businesses. But that’s not the case for Black people. If anything, we have a significant capital gap. That impacts our ability to get a real estate loan, or to live in certain neighborhoods. Even some of the programs designed to close the racial wealth gap aren’t cutting it. The FHA has a product where you only have to put 3.5% down of the total purchase price. But you may only get qualified for $120,000. That’s not going to get much in Durham. Also, the racial wealth gap has a real, tangible impact on small business owners who want to buy or invest in real estate and thrive. 

I’d like to hear more about your background. You brought up your time in the State Department, and then you moved on to the CDFI. When you look back on all of these experiences, do you feel there’s some throughline that kind of pulled you to this point?

The throughline was seeking entrepreneurship, the ability to innovate, and to see results. When you work in government, your ideas, things like progress and improvement, results — those aren’t concepts in government. Government is all about the status quo — incrementalism, if that. I looked around and felt like, OK, everyone seems fine with relishing in mediocrity. I’m working three to four times harder than everyone else. So this presents an overworth on my part to this agency, but I can take these talents to where there isn’t a ceiling, and my hard work gets better results. I wanted to go somewhere I could be compensated monetarily and fulfilled. I wanted to get a return on those efforts emotionally, mentally, and financially. That’s what made me think, where can I go? 

Let me back up. I started in the State Department at 24 years old. At that time, I didn’t know all capitalist-driven workplaces thrive on the ideas of others without adequate compensation, specifically Black women. I didn’t know it wasn’t just the State Department. It’s everything. It’s everywhere. It wasn’t just at the community bank, or Wall Street banks. Just...period. Think about where our community would be if Black women just disinvested all their time and energy from white-led organizations, and put those efforts into their community? Our community would be leaps and bounds ahead of where we are now. 

Go off, Kharmika! 

It would be transformative, right? Once I had that epiphany, I had to move on. When you work for the government, you’re a representative for the government 24/7. Your opinions don’t matter. You just share whatever talking points they want you to share. That was very unsustainable for me once I felt like I was really seeing things clearly. And that dissatisfaction became especially resonant during what felt like rampant impunity and lack of concern for Black people being killed by police and during Trump’s presidency, specifically his first 100 days in office. In 2016, police killed more than 250 Black people and yet that remained unaddressed. There was so much gas-lighting and I had to participate in it. I’d reassure our Dutch counterpart that nothing has changed, everything is business as usual, we are hired to defend the Constitution, etc. I was regurgitating all of that but it’s like, who wrote the Constitution? I realized that I had all of these unchecked notions of patriotism, and I hadn’t examined these universal truths or beliefs. But they don’t apply to me and my rights, and they weren’t created with me in mind, so why am I defending this document? So as July 2017 approached and my tour in Amsterdam was set to end, I decided it was a good time to end my career with the State Department. 

We don’t get the acknowledgement or recognition we deserve as Black women. I think about how that journalist said he couldn’t focus on Representative Maxine Waters’ comments because of her “James Brown hair.” This is one of the longest-standing members of Congress. Or when [journalist] April Ryan was in a White House Press Corps briefing and shook her head as [former press secretary] Sean Spicer was speaking, and he condescendingly told her to stop. A few years later, an Asian-American journalist [Weijia Jiang] challenged the President when he directed her to ask China about the coronavirus. She was able to do that because April Ryan set the precedent for challenging authority in that space. Yet in this more recent incident, the journalist was praised and April Ryan, at the time, had to defend her actions. And so again I’m asking if acclaimed journalists and distinguished members of Congress can’t get recognized for their contributions, then what chance do I have? I can’t keep doing this for thirty, forty years. I had to break free. 

So looking ahead, what impact are you seeking to create with LiveLoveDurham.com, and what are your next steps toward that vision? 

There are certain financial and economic milestones I need to hit before I tell other people how to build their own wealth. I would like to sell real estate at a very high level, and then make sure that I’m always making space for those who wouldn’t ordinarily get a second look for certain properties. Even now, I try to put that into practice. I just got off the phone with a cosmetologist who was looking for commercial space, and had little idea about what is involved in that process. Many people would easily have hung up on her because it was clear that she was just starting out, and her understanding isn’t as sophisticated yet. But in helping her, my hope is that in five, six, seven years, she can support others and pay it forward. 

I also want to continue creating wealth for my family and myself, and learning how to create generational wealth. We need to know what it’s like working for ourselves at a high level, and a lot of Black women and men pour into these organizations we work for, with little to show for it in personal wealth. For example, think about how many Black women are teachers. Teachers in North Carolina get paid so little, despite giving so much to the community and to their students. And yet, the state doesn’t respect teachers which has a fairly large representation of Black women. I want to make sure we take care of ourselves, no matter the work we do or what background we’re coming from. So that’s the vision, empowering myself and my family, and creating generational wealth, while helping others do the same. 

---

Please share this post with a friend, and follow us at @BlackWomenWorkIG!

Hiwote Getaneh, Podcast Producer and Host, Depth & Candor Podcast

Hi, Hiwote! Let’s start with the basics. Can you share what you’re currently doing?

Sure! I’m a contracted podcast producer at Magnificent Noise, a podcasting production and creative agency. Have you heard of Esther Perel’s podcast, Where Should We Begin? I work for that podcast! I am also working for an upcoming TED podcast. The rest of my time, I’m working to build my podcast Depth & Candor into a business. 

I’ve been working on turning it from a side hustle into a business since October 2019, and it’s been quite a transition because I’ve always been a good worker and a good student, but being a good entrepreneur requires a whole other set of skills. I’ve been unlearning my old ways, and embracing testing my ideas without a roadmap. I’m also learning to have enough discipline to not be distracted or sidetracked by the small things that look like extensions of the business, but aren’t actually part of my vision. 

Can you share more on building Depth & Candor? 

Depth & Candor is a podcast and newsletter for the young Black woman who wants to live a very fun and meaningful life.  I interview women who fit that mold — women like Myleik Teele, Jovian Zayne, and Nicaila Matthews Okome who are living full lives. These three women are all great examples of people who have created the space to define and pursue their own definitions of a vibrant life. I also like that they’ve created businesses rooted in supporting other Black women to be their best.

The podcast has been running since January of 2017, and it originally started as just me showcasing the stories of each guest. Now, I’m at the point where I can dedicate time to making every episode actionable in addition to being entertaining. I want the audience to walk away from each episode motivated to define and pursue their own version of a vibrant life.   

That’s such an amazing intention. How do you see Depth & Candor evolving from where it’s at now?

For the next few months, I want to be in the phase of monetizing by pitching sponsors/brands. My dream in the long run is to create a space with resources for young Black people to get their voice out in the world. There’s a small barrier to entry for podcasts — it’s low but it’s not free. So if someone wants a great mic or wants to take a class to learn to be a great storyteller, or to build the skills to make their interest into a fruitful venture, I want to have a space where young people can get those resources. I would want it to be free for the people who need the resources, and so I need to figure out how that could be monetized through sponsors or brand partnerships. Another potential model is to have a production company where I would create podcasts for clients, and part of the revenue could pay for a space for others to create their own media. 

That’s so interesting. You mentioned something that really stuck with me in an episode of Depth & Candor — one in which you shared your own story. You spoke about how you’ve learned to appreciate failing as part of finding your purpose. Can you share more on that?

I was a super achiever as a student so failing was the one thing I didn’t want to ever do. As I look back at my early twenties now, most of my “safe” decisions were actually failures because they just extended my time away from what I was actually interested in doing. On the other hand, had I not done all of the things that I have, I wouldn’t have the knowledge or skill set to do what I do now, or to do it with the same level of quality. 

I should back up a bit for context. When I went to grad school for public policy, on day one, I knew I wasn’t inspired or happy. But I’d gotten into Johns Hopkins which is this great school, and I felt like I just couldn’t squander this opportunity. So I fought for the next two years for something I didn’t even really want, but I didn’t have the language to express why I didn’t want it. When I graduated, I took a policy research job. I learned a ton, but I only stayed for three years because I didn’t know how to find a career I actually enjoyed. And so while it could be considered a failure that I spent too long there, I try to think of it as “failing forward” because I try to use what I learned in each experience, and apply it to whatever new situation I land in. 

And so how did you get from there to producing podcasts?

In January of 2018, I vowed to get a job producing podcasts and I applied to a lot of open roles, but I didn’t hear back from anyone. I eventually left my policy research role in August of 2018 to work at Mic as an account manager. I wasn’t producing a podcast, but I was grateful to have found a role that was at least in the same industry as the one I wanted to be in. When Mic got acquired by a bigger media company, I worked as a marketing manager at AfroPunk, until I met a podcast producer on the train who would eventually help me change my career trajectory. 

A friend of mine and I were leaving Elaine Welteroth’s book launch in June of 2019, and we were sharing what we thought about the event when a woman behind us said “I’m so sorry to eavesdrop. I’m here capturing audio, and I feel like you’re part of the audience we want to capture.” She asked us what we had thought of the event, so we spoke with her and shared some of our thoughts. When I asked what audio was for, she told me that she was a podcast producer. I was thinking, Cool... aren’t we all? (laughs) Then she tells me that she produces the Where Should We Begin? podcast — one of my favorite podcasts. I couldn’t believe it. When the train came, we got on and sat separately, and I kept thinking, I have to say something. There’s a big part of me that is socialized to figure things out on my own, so asking this stranger out to coffee to see if she’d be willing to speak to me about her podcast felt like a big move for me. 

Ultimately, I approached her and asked her to coffee, and she was so nice about it. Coincidentally,  we met for coffee the day before my birthday and I told her how much fun I had been having celebrating, and she said, “No way! I have the same birthday!” So a thirty-minute coffee date turned into a two hour conversation. We talked about all the things we wanted for our careers. She’d worked at NPR for several years and had launched and ran another major podcast. When I asked what she was currently doing, she said that she had started a podcast production company, and that there might be some things she could pull me into.  At the time, I was just starting to get the lay of the podcasting landscape, so that was an incredible offer. Eventually she asked if I’d like to work with her production company part-time while continuing to work on Depth & Candor. I accepted her offer and quit the marketing job I had at the time. I still think about how it was a split-second decision to speak with this woman on the train that changed everything. It’s essentially a professional meet-cute. (laughs)

It is a professional meet-cute! I love that. So much of what you’ve shared reminds me of something I’ve realized about my own tendencies throughout my life. I’ve heard it called “box-checking.” Essentially it’s this idea that you can get so caught up in doing all of the things you’re told to do — go to college, get your degrees, go into specific, acceptable careers. It sounds like you went through a similar journey of realizing how box-checking can really distract you from seeking truly fulfilling work. Can you share more about that journey, and what you have learned? 

I was definitely a workaholic. I think it’s worth saying that a lot of what I learned in changing my behavior came from going to therapy. And understanding that my value and my worth exist simply because I’m here. My value isn’t tied to anything I’ve done or any of my accomplishments. Learning that lesson is a continuous practice for me because I tend to go back to that place of fixating on what I have and have not accomplished as a measure of my value. The truth is that that fixation drives so many of our decisions as a society. I don’t think you would necessarily be worse off if you kept checking boxes and doing what felt safe, but it’s not an emotionally sustainable mindset for me, and rooting myself in corporate stability is an illusion. Abandoning that mindset has left so much room for joy and a real sense of community. I don’t have to spend every second of my life perfecting my work. 

You mentioned earlier that you like to do things on your own. Did you have to learn to ask for help? 

I’ve actually always felt pretty good asking my friends for help. Or even with listeners who tell me how much they love my podcast, I will say “That’s awesome, but what would you change if you could?” Or, “What else could I do to make it better?” And so in that way, asking for help isn’t hard. But for me to ask for help from someone I don’t know — that was really difficult to learn. 

I’m taking an entrepreneurship class at the Google Learning Center. A couple of weeks ago, I pitched my podcast business idea in front of the group. When I finished, I knew I didn’t do well. I realized it was because I had never pitched to strangers — only people who knew me. So I’m learning to be open to hearing how others who I don’t know perceive my ideas, and getting their constructive feedback. Learning to take up that much of a stranger’s space is weird. I keep thinking, “Is this how white men feel?” (laughs) But it’s also energizing because I’ve realized in letting new people interact with my half-baked ideas, that there are so many opportunities I hadn’t previously thought of. You can’t do that sitting at home in front of your computer, or in talking to the same people who already know you or your business really really well. In March, I’m going to do a live show for Depth & Candor because I shared a half-baked idea with someone I don’t know very well. She was like, “Live shows are what I do — let’s make this happen!” 

What other things have you done to continue growing in your craft?

So earlier I told you that I am a great student and need to learn to be a great entrepreneur. Like any good student, I would do my homework. I listened to all the podcasts and I read all the books on entrepreneurship, digital marketing, etc. But I wouldn’t give that advice to another person trying to learn. I think sharing your own ideas and testing your products is actually the better way to learn. I don’t know if that is going to be true for everyone, but as someone starting out, I’ve found that sharing ideas and testing products with people to be the most powerful. 

That being said, some podcasts have been helpful. I’m a student of Nicaila Matthews Okome’s “Podcast Moguls.” I’ve taken Amy Porterfield’s email marketing course and Seth Godin’s marketing seminar. All three of these people also have podcasts you can listen to and learn from. And even though this isn’t directly linked to learning about my craft, Oprah and Deepak Chopra’s free twenty-one day meditation course has really taught me how to calm my mind. If I don’t ground myself, I tend to start spinning and just doing things, which means I start leaning into my old habits as opposed to working with intention. And finally, I’ve taken a bunch of storytelling and copy writing classes on Skillshare, which is an affiliate of my podcast.

Coming full circle, what would a world look like for you to create that ideal space for Black people — for learning, growing successful businesses, and to finding joy and fulfillment? 

Our people carry a lot of trauma. We play nice with people who don’t look like us and often fail to treat ourselves and each other well.  In my dream world, all Black people would have access to a therapist they love, and that would help more of us to cultivate our liberation and joy. We live in a crazy time and we all need to be civically-engaged, but the first thing we have to do is truly love and empower ourselves.

POSTSCRIPT: Here’s what Hiwote has been up to since her original interview with Black Women Work some months ago.

Since we last spoke, so much of my world has changed! I'm now working full-time as a podcast producer at Magnificent Noise, which has been a huge blessing given the economic climate. 

Over the last few months, we launched and finished a season of the New York Times show, Together Apart, which is all about how people maintain connection during a pandemic. Our last two episodes were about centering Blackness and Juneteenth, and they are two of my favorite things that I've ever produced — probably because it was super gratifying to make something Blackity-Black with the New York Times. And now, I'm working on a podcast series for TED called Pindrop and the seventh season of Depth & Candor, which will be exploring the ins and outs of Black joy!

---

Subscribe to Hiwote's Depth & Candor podcast on iTunes, Spotify, or Stitcher.

Please share this post with a friend, and follow us at @BlackWomenWorkIG!

Vanetta Schoefield, Comedian and Founder & CEO, Funny Hunnyz

Hey, Vanetta! I’m so glad we’re able to do this. Can you share more on your entertainment company, Funny Hunnyz?

I was already producing comedy shows and it was my birthday, and so I wanted to do a show with all women. I wanted it to be cute, so I was like, I’m going to call it Funny Hunnyz. Plus, all the dudes will come out if I have an all-female lineup on my show. (laughs) That was how I started it. It felt really good to put on, everybody was funny, there were good vibes. I felt empowered doing it, and the women who were on the lineup felt empowered by being a part of it. I loved that. So it was kind of an accident that it turned into what it did, but it went well so I just kept doing it. At one point, I thought, I’m spending a lot on this. Maybe I should do something to ensure I get some money back. So I LLC’d it because I was spending so much money and time on it, and it felt like I should build it up. It became a passion for me. Eventually I started to focus on content and not just shows, so I started a podcast. I was doing a lot and failing fast to get Funny Hunnyz to a place where it could be successful and what I envisioned. It’s like if Comedy Central and Lifetime had a baby, but a ratchet baby. (laughs) It’s just a funny way to tell women's stories because every woman is different. 

That's so dope. You said you were failing fast to make Funny Hunnyz successful, which I find interesting. What lessons did you learn that allowed you to adjust, and to improve? 

Well, it depends on which failure you want to focus on. (laughs) I made the failure of thinking I had to spend a lot of money or have a lot of connections to do what I wanted. But ultimately, it takes hard work and dedication. You can’t cheat the process for something you want to build organically. You have to come into the process every day with an open mind, and be positive. You can read a lot of sh*t, but it won’t help with your unique experiences. It just won't prepare you. I’m not trying to say that reading isn’t helpful, but you have to be willing to keep an open mind, and be ready to learn and receive lessons from wherever.

We met in college, and I was surprised when I saw you had started your comedy career. I’m interested to know how you transitioned into comedy, from what you may have had in mind back when we were in school.

I think it ties back into failing fast. I used to look at a lot of the things I did before comedy as failures. I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do, but I knew I wanted to help people. In college, I wasn’t interested in the classroom. I was the most active bitch I knew. (laughs) I was in every club, and super active in the community, but I hated class. In my senior year, I found out that I had a learning disability and it really messed with me. I was waitressing at the time, and I thought, I’ve always been great with people. So I moved to Greensboro and that’s when I got into entertainment. I kept waitressing, but I also went into sales, radio...the common denominator was always people. 

I have really been enterprising my people skills in different ways and in different areas. I realized that I wanted to be myself and get paid to be myself. I always just wanted to be me — never anybody else. That’s worth fighting for, but it has been a very interesting journey. Everything I've done has prepared me to run Funny Hunnyz. Even though I didn’t finish school, I’ve gotten a degree in me, and being the best I can be. I think of stand-up and all that I’ve done while in New York City as like my college experience, because I’ve done everything. I have done a lot of courses in comedy itself, voice acting, stage acting, producing, being on the stage and behind the scenes...I can do everything. I’ve gotten a studio certification and did everything I’d need to do to run a studio. Now I’ve been working on managing clients, and making managing comedians a greater focus of my business. It’s been a wide range of study, I guess. (laughs) 

It’s incredible that you have so many technical skills that build into your overarching vision. That’s super impressive! So, given all that you’ve done and can do, how would you define yourself and your work?

It’s really difficult actually. It’s been hard. Many people told me to stick to stand-up. A lot of stand-ups — they’re haters. (laughs) They’d tell me to just stick to stand-up, and that all of my other projects and interests were distracting me from getting better at stand-up. My impression was like, OK, so you see me as a threat to you because I can do more than you. But the way I look at it is that I can help them. I like helping comedians a lot more than I like doing my own stand-up. I’m grateful for my experience with stand-up, though, because it has allowed me to  better understand my clients and the people I work with. 

I read [author Robert T. Kiyosaki’s 1997 book] Rich Dad Poor Dad. It has changed the way I view life and what I’m meant to do. In one story, the author writes that he advised a woman who wanted to be a best-selling author to take a sales course. She said to him “I have two degrees, why would I need a sales course?” His response is to hold up his book, which is a bestseller, and he says something to the effect of, “It says best-selling author, not best-writing author — I know how to sell.” So that changed the way I understood my role in things. I would like to be a little bit of an Olivia Pope and a little bit of Shonda Rhimes for women in comedy and entertainment. 

You’ve mentioned a few times that you feel best when you’re helping people, and how you’ve made helping others a focus in your career. When did you come to this realization? 

It’s funny because I’ve been on some therapy and self-healing, so I actually have the answer for this. (laughs) I think it stems from not being helped when I needed it, although I’m healing now. A lot of my initial desire to help came from, you know, that a lot of people have to work through trauma. For me, it was like a high to help them reach and be their best selves. And then you’re like, how couldn’t you love me, I’m the best, see? I’ve helped you! I think that’s where it started, and then I just realized I was good at it. And it’s fulfilling. But that’s where it comes from. 

In comedy, being a woman, you know...there’s no HR in this sh*t. (laughs) Our office is a club. Our co-workers are mostly dudes. Right now, me sitting with you at 11 a.m. with my glasses on is more professional than any other comedian you probably know, because most of them are still in bed, hung over. (laughs) They don't have a business sense in the way they handle themselves. So I’m like, I can help them. And, of course, I just hate how women are treated in society. I loved my sexuality studies courses in college, and I’m really passionate about the treatment of women, how little women are helped or offered support in our world. And, you know, women are used and abused in entertainment. So all of that is happening around me, too. With Funny Hunnyz, I feel like I can do something about it. I’m not just going out to march with a sign. And so that is also where I think my desire to help comes into play.

How do you feel you’ve worked that equity-oriented perspective into the way you create content, or produce material and shows? 

I’m in the process of rebranding. I’m putting more thought into how Funny Hunnyz does comedy distinctively, and how our perspectives as women are incorporated into our jokes. I’m one woman, and my personal point of view isn’t necessarily the point of view that I want to represent Funny Hunnyz. So I circumvent that by booking all women so every show has a variety of content, and I pay every woman I work with. A lot of women don't get paid in general. Even if they’re on with a big comedian, the woman is typically opening for them. So I make sure everyone gets paid, I only book female headliners, and about 85 percent of all staff — the photographer, the director, everyone — are women. I love that. I will say, women DJs are expensive! (laughs) They charge twice as much as male DJs. When you book a guy, they’ll be like “GIve me whatever.” Women DJs are like, “That’ll be $225...an hour.” (laughs) So, you know, balance. 

You’re so savvy. How did you get to this point? How did you learn the business so well?

I stalk everyone on Instagram. (laughs) Everyone who knows me well tells me that I should be an FBI investigator because I’m so good. (laughs) But I do stalk people and I learn about them, and check out what they’re doing, how they’re doing it. I wasn’t even active on Twitter, but I got back on once I got to New York. One night, it was probably two o'clock in the morning, and I’m on Twitter. I see that Amanda Seales tweets that she’s moving to Los Angeles, and she’s selling this painting. I saw it, and it spoke to me. I think it was fifty dollars, and I’m like, it’s Amanda Seales! She’s a creator, a comedian, she does music — she does it all. I felt like it would be dope to have a piece of art by her. 

When I got to her apartment, she handed me the painting, and a flyer for her comedy show, and told me about how she’s moving to be part of a  web series. We had the same sketch teacher, Brandon Bassham, and we talked about that a bit, and finally I’m like, “Hey, I would love to be a writer for you.” She’s like “well…”  But I’m persistent, and it’s Amanda Seales! I’m in her apartment! Picking up a painting! Of course I had to be like, what’s up? Let me come to LA! (laughs) Finally she’s like “Sis, start your own sh*t. Do your own thing. Be empowered.” That was the last thing she said to me, and it stuck with me. And from then, anybody I met at comedy shows, literally anybody, I would network with them. Anybody where it felt like I could work with them, or under them, or we could collaborate. You can take something from anybody around you, and so I just tried to learn from everyone I met and worked with. You have to really look out for yourself, because nobody is going to help you. When they’re looking out for themselves, they’re not looking out for you. I realized I had to look out for me, and find or create opportunities to grow and get smarter.  

That’s a great story. So, in short, Amanda Seales told you to get your stuff together and go do you. (laughs)

Basically Amanda Seales sonned the f*ck out of me. (laughs) No, but it’s all love. I can't wait to see her at the Oscars to tell her, “You told me to start my own thing, sis — I did it!”

I love that you still have her painting. 

I do! And I’ve had seven moves since I’ve been in New York. (laughs)

Do you feel as though you’ve found your groove? What else do you think you want to do? What’s next?

I feel good in the space I'm in. I know that I’m building Funny Hunnyz the way I want to build it, that it’s in my vision, and I know where the brand is going. I know where it’s going, and I’ve been particular about who is associated with it. The way I’ve evolved, I’ve really made myself step up. I’ve become a better woman in order to run my brand in the best way. I know we’ll be a female, black-owned studio. And I know that with the way I work, and how efficient I am, my whole team is going to be the same way.  We’re going to be able to make a movie in a week. (laughs)

I’m ready. I’m ready to showcase what black women can do in the entertainment industry. I follow in the footsteps of amazing black women and black brands. I want to work with them, and I’ve reached out, but it hasn’t happened yet. I know I have to work to get the Funny Hunnyz brand up to their standards. It’s been difficult to get in with them, though. I hate to say it, and I’m not trying to diss black women at all, but white women have been super willing to help and collaborate. When I sent out calls to create content around the quarantine, no black women were interested, but white women were available. Given what I want Funny Hunnyz to look like, that’s problematic, because I’m trying to get us to make these videos like, “C’mon sis!” It shouldn’t feel like pulling teeth, but I do think that when you have a vision and it’s early on, it’s hard for people to see that vision as clearly as you do. Sometimes I think that until I get onto BET or Refinery29, people won’t quite understand what I’m trying to do. I hope it won’t take that long, but I’m betting on me. But that’s what it is to be an entrepreneur. I have to do everything I can, and remain at the forefront, and keep creating, until they see it. 

---

Please share this post with a friend, and follow us at @BlackWomenWorkIG!

Candace Hugee, High School Principal

Hi, Candace! Can you share what you do? 

I am first a teacher and an educator. I’m also the principal of the Urban Assembly School for Collaborative Health Care. We are located in Brooklyn. I’ve been at this school for four years. Prior to being at this school, I had started another high school in Sheepshead Bay [Brooklyn], and I was there for four years. In total, I’ve been in education for fifteen years. 

Wow. Did you start as a classroom teacher? 

So I started as a school aide. I’ve been a school aide, a paraprofessional, a teacher, an assistant principal, and now a principal. And I’ve been a school secretary. So I’ve held pretty much every position in a school. (laughs) 

You actually have! (laughs) Can you share more on what brought you to education? Influences that helped you to chart your course? 

I really thought I would be a sportscaster. I double-majored in communications and history, and I minored in dance. I always went to city schools. I graduated high school at 16, and went to college early at a school in the CUNY [City University of New York] system, at Hunter College. I had always worked at camps — day camps, summer camps, after-school programs. I just thought the kids were dope. We had a lot of similarities. I look like them and they look like me. So I was around kids a lot through those jobs.

After I had graduated from college, I did an internship at ABC, and worked a bit at ESPN. I enjoyed the sports journalism world, but it was very misogynistic, full of white men, and I didn't see an opportunity to get where I wanted to be in the near future. I was watching endless games, writing the narratives for the sportscasters to read on on-air broadcasts, and they would just read my notes. They wouldn’t watch many or sometimes any of the games. On top of the fact that it wasn’t really fun, I got stuck watching all of the hockey games. I’m black. (laughs) So that was a catalyst to start thinking of what would be next for me, professionally.

At the same time I was interning, I was working as a school aide just because I needed an extra check, and the benefits. I wasn’t thinking of education as a career choice, but I realized by that point that I liked being in schools, so being a school aide was a great opportunity. So I applied for New York City Teaching Fellows, and was accepted. That put me on the path to becoming a principal. 

I should note that I had attended a middle school called Philippa Schuyler, led by a dynamic principal named Ms. Mildred Boyce who I can confidently say changed my life and the lives of so many others who graduated from that school. The way she cared about us and the way that she held expectations made a huge impact on me in terms of what an educator could be. She’s a real matriarchal figure in so many of our lives. 

You’re talking about influences and so I’m curious who else has been pivotal in your life? How have you paid those lessons forward? 

I teach at a high school because I prefer older kids, but also because I feel that my own high school failed me. I went to a really huge high school. If I didn’t have any drive, if I didn’t have my parents, I could have easily slipped through the cracks. No one would have noticed. I was just a number. Because of that experience and people I’ve met, like Ms. Boyce, I’m now leading a high school. I think the lessons I took from Ms. Boyce, and from watching the other teachers who are more experienced than me, essentially underscored the importance of really knowing your students. Any school I’ve led, I never wanted a student to feel or be treated as though they were just a number. Social-emotional learning is kind of a buzzword now in education, but it counts a lot to me. Academic success is important, but students have to feel as if they belong and that you care. And you’d be surprised. The student who is driving you insane can often be the one who really wants to make you proud. When I think of my own experience as a student, I knew the adults in my life expected me to do my best, and I try to impart that on my students, which I think is why I’ve had pretty successful schools. 

What do you think makes you uniquely suited to be in the space you’re in, and not only to be in those spaces, but to thrive and have successful schools? 

I think it’s because I listen. Over time, I had to create boundaries with my students because I would listen too much. But in taking over the school I have, it was a disaster when I got there. The girls — and the school is about seventy-five percent girls — were fighting nonstop. Although my superintendent didn’t initially agree with my approach, I spent several of my first months there just listening to the kids, listening to the teachers. I went into it setting very clear expectations for everyone I spoke to that I may not give you the answer you want, or give you a quick “fix”. But we’ll talk through the issue in order to figure out what you need to be successful. So I’ve gotten to learn so much about the kids and my staff, and I share things with them, too. I see myself in them, and whether they see themselves in me or not, they always know they have an advocate. 

What is the significance of being a black woman working in your school? 

I think it makes all the difference. I don’t know what is worth more — being black and female, or shared lived experiences. From the onset, I think it lowers students’ defenses because they know I understand where they’re coming from. To be able to talk about a life that was lived similar to their own, whether I’m talking about the age I had my daughter, or my school experiences, I think that counts for a lot. I think my identity also helps with the parents, and staying in tune with them. And it’s the little things. For example, I’m 35 years old and even though I still don’t know what these kids are listening to, they know I’m open to learning what’s going on and letting them teach me. I think being a black female means I can attract staff who look like me. I’ve had people tell me that they received all these offers to work in different schools, but that they want to come work for me because they want to work for a black principal who really believes in the work. 

Do you do any leadership development where you identify some younger folks to groom, and what does that look like? 

When I first got to my school, unfortunately, I had to get rid of a lot of the older teachers who were just unwilling to get on board with my vision for change in the school. The teachers who came in to backfill those vacancies were young, as in 23 or 24 years old. They’re really energetic, so I try and channel that excitement away from trying to be the kids’ friends, and instead focusing on getting good at their craft. I try to work with them around pedagogy. For younger teachers, many are looking to make connections. They want to do this after-school club and that club. I encourage that enthusiasm, but I do try and work hard on developing their content knowledge and teaching skills while still giving them the ability to do the activities that excite them. 

And at the system level, how do you feel black educators are brought into and developed for leadership roles?

I really struggled my first two years. I felt like I was just hired to run the school I’m currently at because I was smart and a black woman, and the school is predominantly black girls. They were like, “OK, great, she’ll fix this.” I didn’t have any context for what I was getting into and nobody tried to give me any. They just threw me into Narnia. (laughs) As it turned out, the school had a deficit of hundreds of thousands of dollars. So it was a lot. I really resented the way district leadership treated me, and I don’t think it was malicious or intentional -- the system is overburdened. But I was just given no attention. 

In my third year, I was mentored through the Assistant Principal Leadership Institute through the district's Office of Leadership. I didn’t want anyone to go through what I went through so I tried to talk to my peers to prepare them for what they would face. That was kind of my way of pushing back against the system. Everyone wants to talk about DEI, but nobody wants to get real about some of these issues that weren’t going to be covered in our leadership classes. I wanted them to know,  you need to be able to advocate for yourself.

I would say now the system thinks they’re addressing issues of inequity by putting us all through these implicit bias trainings and talking about race, but it’s not authentic. It shouldn’t be that we’re only having these conversations at designated times in these facilitated spaces. We should be able to discuss DEI issues in all settings, regarding all aspects of our school system, our students, and its leadership structure. 

Is there anything we haven’t touched on where you want to get into it? 

I think what I really want to get out there, I’m starting a social media blog. It’s called Your Favorite Principal. I need to get it up and going but I’m excited about that. 

Also, I can’t leave this conversation without saying that this profession — education — needs people. The system desperately needs teachers. Quality teachers. There are so many teaching preparatory programs cranking out people who are routed directly into teaching positions. I think we need to bring the integrity of the profession back to front and center. We need people who are going to really take this as their life’s work, and see their work as investments in generations to come. I’d love to one day work on a national initiative to draw people into teaching because it is a great career, and there are great perks. But I would love for those teachers to look like the kids in the communities where they work. 

Wonderful. That’s a great note to end on. Thank you, Candace!

Alexandra Giniger, Gallerist

Hi, Alexandra! I’m so excited to speak with you and to have someone represented in this project from the art world! Can you share more on what you do? 

I am the director of artist relations at Jack Shainman Gallery. I’ve been working in the art world for just under a decade. I studied art history, English, and French in undergrad at Georgetown University, and then I pursued my master’s degree directly after college. I studied art and museum studies at Georgetown and focused in contemporary art business at Sotheby’s in London. Both in Washington, D.C. and in London, it was incredible to have so many museums in which to study. The Smithsonian was a great resource, but ultimately I was interested in working with living artists, specifically artists of color, and so I returned to New York City for its rich gallery scene.

Between my junior and senior year of college, I interned at the Studio Museum in Harlem. All of my English studies in college had some focus on Black writers, but none of my art classes offered that exposure to Black artists. Maybe one or two were mentioned in an art history survey course, but there really wasn’t any contemporary Black art highlighted. So when I interned at the Studio Museum, which really is the nexus both for Black artists and arts administrators, that was so fulfilling.

I’m so appreciative of Thelma Golden, the long-time director and chief curator of The Studio Museum. She’s an incredible leader and an advocate for so many young Black people in this field. Wangechi Mutu, a Kenyan artist, who at the time was based in Brooklyn, gave me my first real job as her studio manager. She’s still a dear friend and mentor to me. She exposed me to so many different elements of the art world. It was beyond measure to work with her and to build her trust in me, allowing me to be a public voice of her creative vision. Through Wangechi, I met a lot of people I’ve since been able to collaborate with — museums, galleries, and artists across the globe. 

After working in Wangechi’s studio for almost four years, I moved into the gallery world. I found that historically, galleries have been dominated by attention to white, male artists, so this was of course a huge shift. I would advocate for including Black artists in the gallery’s programming, but realized that in some ways, those artists were invisible to the people I was working with. It seemed like there were two parallel art worlds. I was trying to bring one into the other, which was critical to me — that all voices and practices be seen and heard. There’s so much talent out there that is just being ignored. Even though it was at times difficult to be doubted when trying to bring these voices to the table, it felt like there was almost no choice but to advocate for these underrepresented artists. 

In March 2018, I started in my current position at Jack Shainman Gallery. It’s a gallery that I have been aware of for essentially my whole arts career and I’m so glad that I now work in this space. Jack has been one of the few gallerists who has given a platform to voices who are outside of the white male bubble that has been prioritized in the art world, and now Jack and we at the gallery work with some of the top Black artists of today. This is all incredibly meaningful to me and I’m beyond glad that I can have discussions surrounding social justice issues at work, as many of our artists engage with these topics in their practices. 

What influences did you have growing up? Did you have any experiences that led you to the art world?

I grew up in New York City, where museums are part of the tapestry. They were part of my world growing up and what my mom exposed me to at a young age. She was always taking me to museums, particularly the Metropolitan Museum as I went to school nearby, and the ancient Egyptian wing was by far my favorite. I took photography and studio art classes growing up. I was always creatively inclined.

In high school, I took my first art history class and that, to me, was a way more interesting way to learn about the history of the world, politics, and culture than in a dryly written history textbook. It was so interesting to learn about spaces, places, and people through creative expression. I didn’t know in high school that this would be my career trajectory, but looking back it seems inevitable. In college, I took art history courses because of my experience in high school. I also participated in an internship at The Studio Museum, which is how I came to meet Thelma Golden and really have my eyes opened to this new, incredible space in which to explore my interest in contemporary Black artists and those historically viewed as outside of the mainstream.

It sounds as though you get to mix both the left and right sides of the brain — you’re doing creative work and business. Is that an accurate assessment? 

That really is the crux of my job — having these curatorial conversations with artists we represent, then translating their visions into practical means. That could be communicating with museum curators, working on contracts, speaking with collectors who are acquiring the work to ensure they understand the artists’ motivations. I’m the liaison between the artists and the business side: everything it takes to make exhibitions come to fruition and to sustain our business, and the artists’ business, by placing the works with the best collectors. Through it all, my job is to ensure all those involved fully grasp the ins and outs of each artist’s practice.

Can you share more by what you mean when you say that you work with collectors around their understanding of the work? Why is that so important and what bearing does understanding have on the collector? 

Sometimes it’s logistical, where we focus more on the conservation of the work, but oftentimes I feel passionately about making sure that the concept behind the work is not lost. For example, I work closely with Nick Cave, who is most known for his work called Soundsuits. This series is rooted in the experience of being a Black man in America. He made the first soundsuit sculpture after the Rodney King police beating, as a kind of coat of armor for protecting identity and to create fluidity while the wearer of said suit moves through the world. They are called Soundsuits because of how they sound when you wear them, but also for the “noise” that Black people are perceived to make while moving through society — we’re considered both loud while also rendered invisible. Soundsuits have gotten more and more elaborate and become more celebratory over the years, and so in that way it's very easy for collectors to forget what they’re actually about — it’s not solely this trendy piece. So, my job is to ensure that the message isn’t lost once the work is acquired, especially because a lot of artists are engaging in what can be seen as a tough dialogue. In terms of placing these works, it’s also our job to give these artists who have been underrepresented in museums as much opportunity as possible to be acquired by institutions into their permanent collections.

You mentioned Thelma Golden at The Studio Museum. Who are other people who have inspired you? 

Black women who work in the art world are very supportive of one another, as there aren’t many of us. I even have some colleagues who I haven’t necessarily worked with directly, but I know they have my back. Wangechi is an artist I used to work with who is still a mentor and a sounding board. Isolde Brielmaier, who is Director of Public Art at Westfield World Trade Center, Curator at Large at the International Center of Photography, and teaches at New York University is another mentor. I’m also part of a collective called Entre Nous, which was started a few years ago by Courtney Willis Blair, a Director at Mitchell-Inness & Nash. We’re a group of Black women, all of whom work in gallery or commercial art world spaces, and we started meeting for casual dinners. A lot of us were friends beforehand, but it’s nice to have a slightly more formal setting to bounce ideas off of each other and just to hang out, knowing that we are all in similar positions professionally. Thelma Golden was actually our guest of honor at our last gathering!

Do you still create art? 

I don’t practice art, myself, but I think about art all the time, even outside of work. Most of my friend group is in some creative sphere. You know about Entre Nous, but my girl gang also is made up of almost all people from creative spaces. Among us are Rujeko Hockley who is a curator at The Whitney Museum of American Art, and Naima Ramos-Chapman who is an incredible filmmaker. Sade Hooks is a director of marketing at an interior design firm and a jewelry maker for her own line, Sade.Gold, and Mbali Ndlovu is founder and lead designer of Lukafit, an empowering activewear brand designed with Black women’s curves in mind. So even though I’m not making art, even on weekends, I’m still in my creative Brooklyn bubble. 

What are you excited about for your future? 

Professionally, I’m excited to see that more and more every year, it seems, Black voices are being valued and gaining a recognition that is long overdue. You see it in that Martin Puryear and Mark Bradford represented America in the past two Venice Biennales, while Arthur Jaffa received the coveted Venice Biennale Golden Lion prize in 2019. Museums are intentionally beginning to integrate more Black voices into their exhibitions and permanent collections. It’s exciting to see and I hope it sustains. I also hope we continue to see more Black voices on the administrative side — curators, gallerists, art world workers. There really needs to be a two-sided dialogue.

Who are some of the Black woman artists that you’re excited about? 

Some artists who come to mind are Torkwase Dyson, who has been working for some time, but is really starting to get more recognition, and also a younger, emerging Philly-based artist, Patricia Renee’ Thomas, who currently has a show on view at Kapp Kapp Gallery. My friend and mentor, Wangechi Mutu, is constantly pushing her practice forward. Her most recent large-scale commission was to create a series of massive bronze sculptures to grace the façade of the Metropolitan Museum of Art — the first time in the Met’s history that the façade has ever been altered. Then, of course, some of the powerhouse artists who I get to work with at Jack Shainman Gallery: Nina Chanel Abney, Toyin Ojih Odutola, Carrie Mae Weems, and Lynette Yiadom-Boakye.

Finally, what is your advice to young Black women seeking to get into the art world in some way? 

The art world is viewed as insular and intimidating. Don’t be afraid to get out there and make connections in real life. Going to openings of artists I was interested in is how I met people in that community. For me, it happened organically and I was able to build that network early on in my career. We’ve all grown together and there is a lot of communal support for one another being, collectively, minorities in this space. So from the outside, the art world can be viewed as a hard-to-penetrate realm, but don’t be afraid to put yourself in the room and say hello.

Photo by Sophie Finkelstein

---

Please share this post with a friend, and follow us at @BlackWomenWorkIG!

Joan Erakit, Founder & CEO, RELATE

Hi, Joan! Can you tell me what you do? 

I am a writer by trade and profession. Writing is the love of my life. It’s the one thing I can do for as long as anyone asks me to do it. It’s the thing I can do for free if I have to. I started writing many years ago, though I didn’t study journalism or writing in college. I actually studied anthropology, and writing became a thing that took over my life. Years later, I find myself launching a media company rooted in my passion for storytelling. So, at the core of everything, language, stories, and narratives are really who I am and what I do. 

How did you come to the realization that you could make something that is your natural gift or passion into a profession?

It didn’t really happen naturally. I think I have always been an individual who believes that if you’re a service-oriented person, then your gifts and your talents kind of come through in that work. I had a group of girls that I mentored who asked me, “How do I know what I’m good at? How do I know what I’m supposed to do in life?” I always think that it’s a two-part answer. First, you have to let yourself experience life and interact with different people. Through those experiences and interactions, the things you love will emerge. Second, find a way to be of service. I think writing and storytelling came to me because I have a passion for people and a Iove of listening to other people’s stories. I also understand not everyone has a knack for stringing sentences together or a confidence in their writing ability, so I appreciate being able to help them to share their stories. 

I have always found that people would come to me and tell me about themselves. In 2009, I started a blog called The Brown Girl File when I moved to Paris for a year in 2009. I wanted to create a blog so that my family could follow what I was doing while abroad. Also, it was really a space for me to tell stories that people told me, resharing their stories with their permission. From there, my writing grew from my blog, to pitching to local magazines in the Twin Cities where my family is from, and I started writing for newspapers and for weekly programs. Every step just moved me to the next, and the next, you know? As I shared, I never had formal journalism training, but I ultimately moved to New York to be a journalist. The thing that drove me in all of those decisions, though, was my passion for people and wanting to be of service.

Can you share more about your fellowship with Vital Voices? 

Sure. Let me back up a bit first. I moved to Italy in 2017 to write a book. I ended up teaching storytelling at a private university for a bit, then I started a project called Open Borders. Open Borders was a storytelling workshop for migrants and refugees, making the space for them to tell their own stories, rather than from a more traditional journalism approach where you’re asking things like why are you here, what’s going on—this very specific line of questioning. I wanted them to be able to own their narrative and journey. 

In 2019, I won a fellowship in a leadership incubator with Vital Voices and their partner, TRESemmé, to continue to develop Open Borders. It’s been an incredible ride, and the fellowship is still going as we speak. It includes thirty women from across the United States who are all badass and passionate, and doing incredible things. It’s a super diverse group of women. Vital Voices and TRESemmé are really there to help us develop our leadership journeys, and to help us prepare and advance on our respective projects, or to plan things we’d like to do in the future. We participate in trainings, business classes, and we receive mentorship. Plus, we get the support of our cohort. Being part of a group of thirty amazing women building and growing their projects is the most inspiring thing I’ve ever been a part of in my life. 

That sounds incredible. I didn’t realize you have done so much traveling. Has that been intentional, or was it just one opportunity leading to the next that happened to take you around the globe? 

It’s a little bit of a two-parter. I was born in Kenya. There is a village saying, which is that the way someone is born is the way they’ll live their lives. I was born on the road. There was a coup the night I was born, and my parents were traveling between two countries, so I was born in a hospital just across the border. So that’s the way my life started, and I feel that as an adult, I was out the door the minute I turned 18 and could get a hold of my passport and ID. (laughs) 

My first trip ever was right after I graduated college. I basically ran away to California to live with this professional skateboarder that I had a huge crush on. We met when he was on tour. I was crazy. (laughs) Since then, I just had this absolute love for travel, and I have been very lucky to work with the United Nations, and to travel the world, and to go on missions with them. And, of course, I have had my own travels. I’ve definitely spent a huge amount of my adult life on flights.

I love that your career has such an interesting, nontraditional backstory. So how has Vital Voices helped you in moving from Open Borders to launching your own digital media company, RELATE? 

The project Open Borders that I started in Italy was my first project supporting refugees. Through my fellowship with Vital Voices, I had a workshop session in New York last year with Vital Voices and TRESemmé. It was one of the most intense developmental opportunities I’ve ever had in my life. We worked with a professional communications team to discuss pitching, we worked on business plans and strategies. Through that workshop, I came to the realization that the strategy and business model I had for Open Borders wasn’t really working. With the support and advice of the mentorship provided through the program, I was able to pivot my project and my company and relaunch it as RELATE. I’m really excited about it. 

I’m excited for it, too, and I would love for you to share more about it. How has the launch process been, and what impact are you seeking to have?

RELATE is a digital media company and we really exist to curate and publish stories that share the lives of not just migrants and refugees, but every single person in the world. The migration crisis affects everyone, regardless of their race, gender, citizenship, or geography. I think by starting a media company where we share stories from across the world, and with so many different people interacting with the topic of migration in this beautiful, visual way, we are able to spark action toward finding a solution to the migration crisis. RELATE operates with the perspective that in reading the story of an amazing human allows you to empathize with their situation. We are working with different photographers and writers from around the globe. It’s an interesting and diverse media company with a different take on how  to tell stories in the digital age. 

That’s such an incredible purpose and intention. Let’s back up a bit because you’ve done a lot of really entrepreneurial things in your career. I think that often we talk about entrepreneurship, we automatically think of business and finance. While there is always that aspect in any new business, I’m curious to know how you came into the mindset of starting your own media company? 

It’s funny you say that, because I’ve always been the type of person who loved to work for companies. Before I started RELATE, I was in New York City, working for companies and organizations I believed in, still trying to be of service. I think that when I moved to Italy, my life changed in a  lot of ways. Something inside of me changed and my mindset shifted. I realized that I had always sought the validation and permission from the institutions and companies I worked for to tell me that I was good at what I did, that I was useful, and that I had a purpose. Ultimately I realized that there were things I wanted to accomplish that I would have to innovate myself, and I needed to lead instead of follow. So I decided there was no other way to accomplish my goals if I wasn’t going to be the person pushing those goals forward. Which is a scary thing to realize and to act on when you’ve always worked for others, and you’ve always had someone else telling you what you should be doing. But once it hit, it stuck. 

As you prepared to stand everything up, were there people you went to for advice? What was it like to say to someone, “Here is what I’m trying to do, this is my vision, can you help me?”

I’ve always tried to be a completely straightforward person when it comes to my vision and goals. I consider myself to be incredibly ambitious. Even in service of others, I had my own goals. I’ve also been good at developing relationships with important and influential people, and I have been able to keep those relationships authentic. I didn’t really ask for anything of them over the years, because I knew what I wanted to do as a writer, and those people followed my work and knew me as a writer. Even though they saw me doing other things, they always reminded me that writing is my passion. So when I was starting to conceptualize and build out the idea for RELATE, I instantly felt like I could go to them.

I was extremely intentional. I made a list of ten influential people I came across in my career, who they were, the interactions we had. I went through the list and contacted them separately, and I told them: here’s where I’m at, here’s  what I want to do. I asked them for their support, advice—anything that would help me push through. I pretty much got a 100 percent response rate, in different ways, or course. They’re all very busy and traveling or whatever, but all of them were able to connect me with someone, give me a piece of advice on conducting business in a different country, give me the name of a mentor or someone I should be in contact with, share advice on how to fundraise or how to put business plans together. Being part of Vital Voices, that has kind of opened that network even further. So I just really believe in that model of being clear and authentic, then making a direct ask. I know that’s difficult for a lot of people to do that when they are starting their own project, but I think you have nothing to lose. 

What has been the hardest part of launching your own company? 

One of the most challenging things about launching this company has been launching it during a global pandemic. Like millions of people around the world who are struggling, I’ve been struggling a lot, particularly with my mental health. It’s difficult to balance your ambitions and be of service when you feel like you’re falling apart, and I’m working to reconcile that reality so I can get up each day and keep pushing my project forward. Fortunately I’ve been able to get professional help, and I have a lot of support between my family and partner, my colleagues and my teammates. And my fellowship has been amazing. They have really created a space for women to be authentic and share what’s going on in their lives. I appreciate that they prioritize mental health, and that they are supporting female leaders professionally but also personally. 

I don’t think I will always feel like this. I know it’s not a fixed state. It’s just a day-by-day process that can make things harder because I’m not feeling like my best self. So that has been challenging so I think that's why  just being able to launch it has really been a labor of love, and I'm so excited because it’s been quite a process.

I appreciate you sharing that aspect of your experience. Pivoting a bit for my final question, how do you think you’ve grown in your leadership over the years? Are there new things you’ve learned about yourself? 

There are two things that have been true for me in my leadership journey and that I have been meditating on. One is that I think I’ve learned to trust myself and my voice as a leader. I trust in my vision for my projects, instead of going outward and asking other people what they think I should do. I’m in a position where I feel like I have the experience and I’ve done the legwork so if I feel my decision is the right one, then that’s what we’re going to do. And it’s two-fold, because if it doest work, I will take 100 percent responsibility for it. 

That leads me to the second thing I have learned, which is taking responsibility for my actions and my business decisions, and learning to accept my mistakes. Being able to look back and acknowledge that, OK, that was a shitty decision I shouldn’t have made, and it had an impact. But then coming behind that and taking responsibility for it—figuring out how to fix it and learn from it. Those two realizations have made me feel extremely seasoned, and have provided the greatest lessons of my leadership journey.

Nakea Tyson, Host of The FearlessKea Podcast & Brand Partnerships at Complex Media

Hi, Nakea! Can you share more on life prior to The FearlessKea podcast?

Yes, prior to The FearlessKea podcast, I was just navigating the streets of New York City and climbing the ladder of my professional career in broadcast media and publishing. So that was life before my podcast. I had always seen myself in the television industry, which is where I started — first at Discovery Channel, then Oxygen, and finally Turner. I’ve always wondered how networks created these compelling stories that drew you in as a viewer. My career took a shift when I went over to USA TODAY. That’s when I got into brand marketing within the publishing industry. Whether television or publishing, storytelling and narratives are what have kept my passion within my career trajectory.

To be honest, it’s kind of crazy how I fell upon podcasting. What prompted me to launch The FearlessKea podcast was a major surgery in 2017, which I talk about a lot on my podcast. I suffer from uterine fibroids, which is common in women of color. The fear of potentially not being able to have kids — the idea of not having that option — prompted me into doing the podcast and talking about one’s deepest fears. I had never thought about not having children, but due to my circumstances, I suddenly realized that had become one of my fears. So my podcast, while it’s not necessarily in video format like television, it still has that nature of storytelling and narrative that drew me to my career path in the first place. 

That segues well into my next question, which is who is FearlessKea and how did she evolve?

So, I called myself FearlessKea because I really wanted to embody that mindset. I don’t believe I was fearless when I transitioned into that becoming my brand. But I believe that there is power in language, and so there’s power in calling yourself something or saying things to yourself so that you can start to demonstrate that type of behavior or emulate that type of attitude. When I took on that persona and what that means, I saw it as being this bold, bright light -- not just in my own life but in others’ lives. I saw myself as using that influence to propel others toward their dreams and aspirations. And once I set that persona for myself, I started to see myself move in that direction, closer to my own dreams and aspirations. 

Prior to building my brand, I had started to feel a little stagnant and stifled. I just kind of felt…I don’t want to say “basic” or “ordinary,” but I just kind of felt like, what is my purpose? When I took on FearlessKea as my brand name, it was with the intention of wanting to approach everything without fear or anxiety that something could happen at any minute to derail me. It really pushed me to lean into trusting my gut and knowing myself; and knowing that whatever happens, I’ll get through it. And once you get through something, you’ll overcome it, and move beyond it. 

It’s interesting that you bring up purpose because that comes up quite a bit in these interviews. This is why I love black women, because so many of those I’ve spoken with reach a point in their careers where they’re like, “OK, this is cool, but what’s my purpose beyond myself?” Wanting to maximize their light, in your words. I was looking at your website, and you described your podcast as exploring “the complexities of fear and the pursuit of happiness.” So can you talk a little bit about what that means, and how might that connect with your purpose? 

The thing about fear is that it never goes away. You can be fearless and still have fear. But there are levels to it. For example, some fears stem from childhood trauma, emotional trauma, or other kinds of formative experiences. For me, I’ve found that exploring those fears is deeply connected to my ability to claim my happiness. I have to look at these things deep down inside to figure out what’s keeping me from getting to where I want to be. I do want to note that happiness is an emotion, which means it’s circumstantial. And so with that, I think that unpacking the layers of pursuing that emotion draws me closer to my purpose. I also believe your pursuit of happiness can and should change over time. We develop a sense of what we think will make us happy and then we get it, and then we’re like, “Nah, that’s not what I wanted.”

As I fine tune my own understandings, and do the work on myself, I’ve realized that exploration is less about the emotion of happiness itself and the specific circumstances that cause it, and more about figuring out what brings me joy? What’s feeding my soul? It’s having that quick emotion of happiness, and then saying, OK, what was it in that moment that made me happy? How can I make this a more consistent and lasting state of being fulfilled? That’s joy. And to get there, you have to unpack some shit introspectively. I think there are a lot of people with fake joy...they seem happy but like I said, it’s circumstantial. They’re not doing the inner work, and so it doesn’t last. It’s not joy. So, doing the real work on yourself is what I believe brings us closer to our purpose.

In terms of starting your podcast, how is that helping you move closer to that purpose? Can you share more about the podcast?

The FearlessKea podcast has pushed me closer to my purpose and what brings me joy because in talking to other people, it allows you to feel that you’re not alone. Everyone has a story. Everybody has their own fears they battle, no matter what kind of presence or claim to fame they have in this digital world, professional careers, or whatever we find to be the measures of success. To sit down with people and ask these hard questions that are not typically asked, it allows me and my audience to know that we’re all human, and we’re all we’re all trying to be better than we were yesterday. I think that’s driving me closer to my purpose because now I understand the impact the podcast has on not only myself, but my listeners. 

I also think the podcast has allowed people to feel that they are sharing their story in a safe space. I have gained each of my guests trust to share their narrative with integrity. It’s taught me that I can go deeper with people, and that’s a skillset I need to hone in on and appreciate because I’m creating an environment where people feel like I’m going to listen and help them get where they need to go in the conversation. And it’s interesting, because I’ve seen a lot of my guests actually do the things they said they were going to do. They’ve manifested the things we’ve talked about on my podcast. I’m not saying our conversation was the thing that made them do whatever we discussed, but like I said, there’s power in saying things out loud and releasing it to the universe.

Now, a year later, that person who said on my podcast that they wanted to be bicoastal has that living situation. That person who wanted a higher title, has that senior director role they mentioned on the podcast. Another guest is in a relationship when they thought they would never be in one. All of these beautiful things have been manifested. It’s the power of language. The more you share, you’re healing yourself, and allowing yourself to move forward and claim your joy. That is the impact that my podcast has shown me I can have in people’s lives. 

That’s beautiful, Nakea. So what is your “day job” and how do you balance that with this tremendous side hustle/passion project that seems to give you so much fulfillment? 

I live in Los Angeles now, but when I lived in New York, my schedule was like clock work. I knew what I needed to do each day in order to work on The FearlessKea podcast and brand. I would get home from work, and I knew — Wednesday nights, I have to edit. I would pre-record episodes so that I could edit them all on Wednesday nights, so that Thursday I could send out the copy to the guest, and let them know we are releasing the episode Friday. 

When I received my current offer in LA, working for Complex in brand partnerships, that move tremendously shifted my routine. I started seeing inconsistencies in releasing my work and it wasn’t because I didn’t have a passion for it. I had uprooted my life, left the East Coast where my family is, left my comfort zone, and started a new job at a new company. And because of those sacrifices, I felt like I had to do well. I had to make it. So in the beginning of my time in LA, there was a brief period where I could maintain my consistency with The FearlessKea podcast because it’s what I knew how to do.  Once I really started to know how my 9-to-5 job worked, and figured out how to excel, that’s when I started to see the inconsistencies in my podcast. I’m sharing this transparently because as you’re building a brand or anything, transitions happen. You have to find your rhythm again. There’s a new way to strike a balance now, because the workload at my job is greater, so it’s a matter of making the time for the podcast and that is going to look different. It’s OK. I just told myself, if this is something you care about, you have to make the time. 

So now I’m thinking about what I want this next phase to look like? Do I want to add video to my podcast platforms? Who do I want to interview? How do I want to take this up a notch from last season? So I’m taking more time upfront, instead of just pushing out content on top of content. I’m taking a step back to ensure I’m seeing elevation in the content. It’s been a hard shift, but I would say consistency, a rollout cadence, and discipline are what allow you to balance your hustle/passion project with your 9-to-5 job.  

So my last question: what is your dream? What do you want for yourself, for The FearlessKea and beyond? 

If I could have it my way, I don’t see myself leaving LA, so I would have my house in the hills, or out in the Valley. (laughs) I want to continue expanding the listenership and growth of my podcast. I see it being a launchpad for expanding my impact in the community. I really want to do more public speaking, maybe as a life coach, motivational speaker, or brand workshop facilitator. I want to be that person who encourages other people beside me and behind me, to help them chart their path forward. 

In my podcast, I feel like I’ve been a sponge, just learning and understanding different narratives and journeys. Now I want to figure out how to pour what I’ve learned into others. I think my platform — no matter what it is — will always be used to inspire others.  I know that I want to primarily work with black professionals, whether it’s a retreat or a conference, or one-on-one. I want people to know that I can be their go-to person, a connector that is to bring like-minded people together. I want people to know that I’m the person who can support them in having these hard conversations, and to be able to have an actionable or measurable result from it. 

The sky's the limit...or, not even, actually. There are no limits. I don’t want to put myself in a box. I want to be able to define my own space, something untapped that marries that connector role with storytelling — which is my day-to-day work, marketing content in a way that strikes an emotional chord. So if I can marry those two parts of my world and have a lucrative income and with an abundance of wealth, then so be it. (laughs) I also just want to fall in love, and start a family, and see that next cycle of my life grow in front of me. So that is also part of the dream, too. 

---

Please share this post with a friend, and follow us at @BlackWomenWorkIG!

Erin McGee, Management Consultant

Hi, Erin! Thank you for doing this! Let’s start by having you describe what you do. 

I’m a management consultant which for me means that I work closely with the C-suite of Fortune 1000 companies. I do a lot of work with Chief Financial Officers and finance leads. My primary objective is helping with cost take-out. That is inclusive of headcount reduction, future-proofing technological capabilities and redesigned processes. For example, it might entail going in and working with several people who work with the CFO to conduct an assessment of what may be redundant and areas where technology might provide unseen business advantages. As a result, I might suggest a redesign of accounts receivable amongst a set of other recommendations. The CFO would then indicate which of those recommendations they’re interested in, and then we implement it. 

Do you like what you’re doing? 

In consulting, the work will be one of three things: people, technology, or process. I like the process and technology parts. Those are the spaces for me where I can really step into the work — I just get it. Where I waver and have to confront my views on capitalism is the people part, and implementing recommendations such as reducing staff by half. In my last project, I reduced four jobs that were moving to China. You could say “Well, it’s only four.” But I had to talk to those people every day. It doesn’t feel great. 

What would you say is your favorite part of what you do? 

I really enjoy the people I get to work with. We have a lot of fun. I’ve worked with this set of coworkers for six and a half years. With that group of people, I do feel that I can be my authentic self at work and all of the things that come along with that, which I think is rare. 

Can you describe your career path? 

In undergrad, I was a business major, and I got my master’s degree in accounting. I’m a CPA (certified public accountant) and I started my career at Ernst and Young doing tax accounting. After two years, I wanted to do something different, and consulting allows you to do something new all the time. A friend of mine worked at a boutique consulting company and so I started working there. I loved it — I loved that it was smaller, and I loved that it was something different every day. Eventually that company was bought out by the company I’m at now. 

What do you think are the necessary conditions for feeling fulfilled and being yourself at work?

It takes time. You have to get to know and trust leadership. For example, the people I’ve been working with, we used to get into arguments related to diversity and inclusion (D&I) — things like what it means to have privilege. When I would have my end-of-year review, they would give me a glowing report. They would say “Erin really pushed the needle on this and helped us understand this issue.” Knowing that they support me means a lot. In this new company, I know that these four guys can block and tackle for me if someone doesn’t value D&I work or my bringing it up. They’ll allow me to grow in my role and contribute towards interesting and rewarding projects. 

How do you apply D&I to the work that you do?

It’s done more internally. In consulting, we have client work and internal initiatives. On the internal side, I try to do a lot of D&I related to recruitment, retention, and promotion. I’m the recruitment chair for New York University. I do things like identify student groups, or implement blind interviews for prospective hires. For retention, I organize working groups, lunch and learns, and cultural celebrations to learn more about our colleagues’ and their backgrounds. We’ll do Diwali soon, and Passover and Hanukkah. I think it’s interesting and creates safe spaces for people to talk about who they are. 

What about on the client side? How do you apply D&I to that part of the work? 

It’s really hard. A colleague of mine has dealt with situations where a client wants to cut senior leadership, many of whom are people of color and replace them with new leaders, all of whom are white men. To persuade executives away from doing that, she’ll present the legal risks — that replacing senior employees of color plays into potential accusations of ageism, or racism. She would highlight all of the institutional knowledge those senior-level individuals will take with them. Ultimately they’re a client, though, so if they aren’t into a more D&I aligned recommendation, there isn’t much that we can do.  

What else do you do to feel fulfilled?

I used to play rugby, but now I’m too broken. (laughs) I do a lot of reading. I hang out with my boyfriend and we’ll read books together. I’m in the process of trying to buy a condo so that’s taking up time. I love going to museums, and working out. I’m hoping to learn how to cook soon. I also love to travel, I just got back from a 2 week trip to Japan. That’s what I do with my spare time. 

What are you excited about for the future? 

I’m excited to have more control over my career. I think in the next few years, doors will open up and I will eventually make the pivot out of consulting and into whatever my next move may be.  I’ve thought about going to a tech startup. I’m also very interested in big data and continue to toy with the idea of going back to school to become a data scientist. And, also, just elevating my personal life — being a homeowner, getting engaged, continuing to grow my relationships with friends, being close to family. I feel like my life sounds boring (laughs), but that’s really what I’m looking forward to.

---

Please share this post with a friend, and follow us at @BlackWomenWorkIG!

Alison Brock McGill, Nonprofit Strategist and Entrepreneur

Hi, Alison! Thank you for doing this interview. Can you share what you do?

I try to succinctly say that I’m a nonprofit consultant. In reality, that can mean a variety of things. At a high level, I work with nonprofit organizations to address any number of problems or areas for opportunity. I got into this work independently when I left a job in corporate social responsibility (CSR) and ventured out on my own in 2016. I started working with small-scale, nonprofit organizations focusing on fundraising and development, capacity-building, strategy, and growth. Over time, one of those client projects evolved into a full time opportunity. 

I’m now working full time as a consultant at Promise54, a talent solutions and advising firm within the education space. We work with all players within that landscape, including charter schools, district school systems, family foundations, and education nonprofits. Primarily we focus on talent-related issues, approached through a lens for diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). So that looks like anything from performance management, developing competencies, assessing compensation, and also thinking about DEI belief statements, strategies, and capacity-building. We take on a variety of projects for a variety of clients. It is a startup nonprofit, which has unexpectedly been my wheelhouse for the past three years. 

When you reflect back, was there a pivotal point where you made the decision to focus your career on nonprofit or service-based work? 

It was around the time I was considering applying to business school, which was in 2008 or 2009. I was living in Atlanta, working at Cartoon Network in a very different capacity than what I do now. It was a for-profit company, doing for-profit work. I had a lot going on in my personal life, and realized I wanted to do things I believe are fulfilling. 

My grandmother — my father’s mother — was living in a nursing home and dealing with early-stage dementia. I was visiting her once a week, and I struggled with losing her mentally. I was mentoring this girl through Big Brothers Big Sisters. Her name was Diamond. I was feeling very exposed to how different her upbringing was from my own. My mother was diagnosed with stage 4 non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, and so I got involved in the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society as a volunteer. I was also training for half-marathons. 

So I would be at my desk, and although I should have been working, I was actually planning fundraisers, organizing activities for me and Diamond, or coordinating with my uncle around when I’d see my grandmother next. So I was doing things that I felt were making a difference in the lives of people close to me. I was supporting another nonprofit in Atlanta called The Jerusalem House, that was doing a lot of work for homeless families dealing with AIDS. This ended up being what I discussed in business applications — wanting to create change. 

I joined Management Leadership for Tomorrow [MLT], which really helped me hone my story. When I went to Haas Business School, I concentrated on social impact and marketing. My first job out of school was in CSR, and from there I moved into nonprofit consulting. 

Did you have any individuals or any organizations who were especially supportive to you along the way? 

MLT was super helpful. My cohort would have monthly sessions with a coach to help process what was going on internally and to get that thinking on paper for our business school applications. So we would have a number of homework assignments that we had to bring to coaching calls and if you had done the homework then the coaching calls were great. I trusted the process, so if they said to write journal entries every month, then I would do it and it wound up being helpful. 

In business school, I plugged in really quickly with organizations like Net Impact, which cultivates students and professionals interested in social impact. I was an officer for our campus chapter of Net Impact, and I helped lead a board matching program which paired graduate students with local nonprofits as non-voting board members, who would support their designated nonprofit with projects. I also became president of another organization on campus called Challenge for Charity, and spent a year rallying my classmates around two different nonprofits in the Bay Area, driving volunteerism and fundraising. 

I had two informal mentors: Kelly McElhaney, who led Haas’s Responsible Business program, and Nora Silver who was in charge of the nonprofit resource center and served as the on-campus sponsor for the Net Impact Board Fellows Program. Nora helped me get a fellowship with Points of Light Foundation as a graduate fellow, where I worked on their ReImagining Service initiative, a program to help for-profit entities think more creatively about volunteerism as a core competency for their employees. I spent time going through a bunch of data from a survey they administered a couple years prior called the Civic 50 where they engaged and highlighted fifty companies that were especially civic-minded. I had to pull trends and practices, which would be used in a series of case studies for other companies to learn from. 

All of these individuals and organizations were very helpful when I was seeking jobs post-graduation, and based on my experiences while at Haas, I leaned into opportunities at nonprofits. 

Given your background, what qualities do you feel make you uniquely suited to do what you do? 

I do find that there is something unique and meaningful in having worked in the for-profit sector and then moving into the nonprofit space. I am a person who believes in taking some of the practices and procedures and mindsets that are used and applied to corporate spaces, and applying them to the nonprofit sector. 

It’s interesting, because I’ve been reaching out to friends and speaking with my husband to figure out what they think I’m good at. They all say “You’re always doing something creative and you’re always in charge.” The creative thing is interesting to me. Being in charge makes sense for how I’ve seen myself, but I don’t think I’ve made space for myself to really lean into my creativity. 

I also realize I love puzzles. I think it’s because I have a unique ability to organize things and put the pieces together. In strategic planning, for example, I can see how the different components fit together. Other people may get distracted or get stuck in their silos, and only care about their side of things — thinking about programming and not operations, or the budget and not programming. So I think that may be a superpower. 

I’ve also come to notice that I feel a lot of things, and I pick up on people's energy. I used to internalize it but I’m trying not to do that as much. I’m a pretty intuitive person, though. When it comes to solving problems that I care about at my core, I think that being able to connect the dots and layer in a real sense of empathy positions me to hopefully make meaningful and sustainable change. 

When thinking about your future, what are you excited for? 

My friend brought me to an event and they had a healing room where this Reiki master led me through a brief personal session. In that session, I said I wanted to manifest more rest and more peace. I want to relax the anxiety that is linked to all of the pressure I put on myself to do well in every part of my life, all the time. I want to release the guilt that comes with not being able to be a superhuman all the time. I think I just want to be more selective about the kinds of projects I’m taking on in 2020. I want to focus more on leadership, youth development, and travel. These are the things that I care about and that I’m excited to more intentionally bring into my life.

---

Please share this post with a friend, and follow us at @BlackWomenWorkIG!

Antoinette Chukudebelu, People and Talent Maximizer

Hi, Antoinette! What do you do and how would you describe it to someone unfamiliar with your space? 

I’m the Managing Director of Talent at Relay Graduate School of Education. My primary job is to think thoughtfully about our people. I think about how they perform in their jobs, how they can do them better and how we can keep them here. I think about their development, and how we’re engaging them as an institution and ensuring we’re considering diversity, equity, and inclusion in all aspects of our work. I also think about how home office operations — how the organization runs, how it functions, how it’s in the service of our mission — works for our people so that they feel supported and satisfied. 

That’s such a wonderful way to view people management. How would you describe your career path? 

I would trace it back to being a kid. As a child, I just liked people. I’m naturally someone who is more of an extrovert and I can connect with people across a variety of backgrounds. I always refer back to those experiences as my first opportunities for leadership and being around a lot of different types of people. I played soccer and gymnastics, and was the captain of those teams, and those were also valuable experiences where I learned so much about leadership. 

I started my career as a kindergarten teacher and that fostered my love for learning and education. I stayed in teaching for six years before thinking about how I might support my peers, and ultimately transferring over to a role where I could support other teachers. When I first came to Relay, I started as an assistant professor of practice — essentially, teaching how to be a great teacher. But I realized that wasn’t what got me super excited. I actually really liked learning more about the people I work with and bringing them on board, getting them integrated into the organization. And so that is when I transitioned over to talent. I believe every strong talent leader should be a recruiter because you’re only as strong as your network and the people in it. So I was a recruiter, and then I went back to my roots to focus on teaching and learning, focusing on professional development, staff performance, organizational culture, DEI, and home office operations. 

How would you describe your typical mindset as you move through your work? 

It’s very “We the People.” My job is to be the voice of the people and listen when it comes to engagement and culture, and bring those revelations to light for the executive team. I would say, similarly, when it comes to assessing the performance and development of staff, I’m always trying to think of what’s best for the people and the institution. And I believe people make the institution. I also try to maintain a growth mindset. We all have opportunities to grow and to learn, and you have to keep that mindset each and every day when you’re in a role that works to develop people.

What’s most fulfilling to you? 

I get an opportunity to see these glimpses of people being very successful in their role, and taking something they learn in a professional development session and applying it and feeling really happy. I feel good about the work I’ve done when I see people fulfilled in their roles. I’ve had very meaningful conversations with managers and institutional leaders who really like where they are and choose to be here. And you want people to choose to be in their roles. I want people to feel they have a choice and they choose Relay. 

What are some experiences that have informed who you are as a professional?

Leadership is something I have started to study -- what makes leaders, characteristics of leaders, why some leaders stand out. In sports, I learned that you have the opportunity to control your own game. You decide your own destiny. How much you practice can inform how you perform. I’ve applied those individual lessons to work and to life. Also, my mom is a quieter personality, and I learned from her what it means to be humble which is just an important quality for any leader in any space.  

I feel like there’s a common theme that keeps coming up, which is this sense of agency. Why is agency so important? 

People need to feel free, to feel liberated, and to have a sense of destiny. In order to feel that way, they can’t feel forced into doing something. When it comes to something as important as our mission — ensuring every child has a good teacher — our students should want to be that and work toward it on a daily basis. 

Are there any experiences where you’re better or stronger for having gone through it?

I’m probably going through that period right now. (laughs) I have a lot going on. I’ve had three babies in three years and I’ve had some health scares. I’m in a place where I could be down and out. But I choose to have hope, and optimism, and empathy, and gratitude. These things have helped me overcome so many hardships. I make the best of what I’m given. I’m not the kind of personality that shies away from tough situations. 

What makes you uniquely suited to do what you do?

My ability to relate to people. People are capable of learning and improving, and that brings resilience. Everyone has their own story that people don’t know. In a role that focuses on people, you know lots of stories and things that others may not. You have to value every story, because it’s very special when people trust you in that way. 

Any parting advice for those who are interested in your field?

My advice for black women, generally, is to know and learn about yourself. Take time to know yourself and take time to advocate for yourself. That means knowing your worth, and making sure that you find supportive people who will help you practice speaking up for yourself so you can do it in jobs and other places. I think we know that many systems weren’t built for black people, especially black women. It takes a lot of knowledge to navigate in these spaces. We don’t inherently have the knowledge that others are walking in with, especially in leadership positions. But you should know that whatever you want to do, you can do that with determination, hard work and support. I’m still learning on a daily basis and it’s critical for the field of talent management, and developing people.

---

Please share this post with a friend, and follow us at @BlackWomenWorkIG!

Lena Levy, Pharmaceutical Business Strategist

Hi, Lena! How would you describe what you do for those who are unfamiliar with your industry? 

I work for Merck and Company. Merck is a pharmaceutical company, and we make life-saving medicines for patients globally. Within Merck, I work as a director in the company’s Corporate Strategy Office. I work on critical cross-functional enterprise projects that fuel the growth of the company. 

What brought you to pharmaceuticals?

I was really drawn specifically to Merck as a pharmaceutical company because patients are at the core of everything they do. Whether it’s the scientists in the lab discovering new medicines or our doctors teaching healthcare professionals about the benefits of a new product — patients come first. We’ve been able to do a lot for the world, from launching the first Ebola vaccine to creating life-saving cancer and HIV medicines. And sometimes we fail, meaning that not every product that we discover will go to market. For example, we had an Alzheimer’s disease medicine that was in a Phase III trial and despite all of the time and money put into that product over the years, ultimately it failed. But I’m proud that my company will always tackle the hardest problems, such as neurological diseases, to solve in medicine and that we will keep trying until we get it right. There are few other industries where you can say that what you do saves lives. 

Functionally, what do you like most about what you do? 

I like that I get to work across the enterprise. I work with every part of the organization and have developed a deep understanding of the inner workings of the company. When you consider medicines being administered to patients, you don’t think about all of the hard work that went into getting that medicine into the hands of a healthcare professional. I have the opportunity to work with scientists in the lab, with engineers in our product manufacturing plants, and with marketing and sales professionals who come in contact with our patients, physicians, and health care providers. So I get a great understanding of how it all comes together. And that’s what I love about what I do. 

How is having a global understanding of the organization helpful?

I have to be an impartial party and think about what is in the best interest of Merck, and how the business can grow. We have to touch as many lives as possible, so I need to know the core, inner workings of the entire company to craft the best strategies and execute critical projects. The Corporate Strategy Office helps our Board and Executive Committee make the best decisions to place Merck in a position of strength for today and tomorrow. 

What allows you to do what you do well? 

I’m really good at adapting to my environment. Before I came into Merck, I had no pharmaceutical experience and I knew that it would be a challenge. So many people have been at Merck for decades, however I knew that I could come in and really learn from their experience. As an example, I never had an appreciation for the complexities of the regulatory process for pharmaceutical products. We are regulated by the Food and Drug Administration in the United States, and by other regulatory agencies outside of the U.S. However, I have been able to sit and understand the full product life cycle from pre-discovery through to market launch and have a greater appreciation for what different parts of Merck do. So I listen and adapt to my environment which has set me apart from others. 

Can you share a moment you have experienced in your career that was especially meaningful?

I would say the period when I worked at Deloitte was a defining one in my life. I wouldn’t be as successful in the workplace without the foundation and teachings Deloitte gave me. I would definitely say that I learned how to be in the corporate world, and how to do that fairly adeptly. There was a moment when I was at Deloitte that comes to mind, specifically. I started in the federal practice, which made sense. I had a public policy degree, and was working in Washington, D.C. I was able to get on a project that had a commercial partner who saw a lot of potential in me, and we discussed the idea of me switching to the commercial practice. Typically, most practitioners in the commercial practice had an MBA and I didn’t  have one. I was placed on a commercial financial services project and set out to prove myself. Eventually, I presented a business case to the head of the commercial practice on why I should have the opportunity to join Deloitte commercial. 

I didn’t know of anyone else who switched from federal to commercial, because it was assumed that if you didn’t have an MBA, you would not be able to do the work well. After presenting my business case, I was allowed to switch to the commercial practice, continued to be a high-performer and took on a national leadership role. This experience made me realize that my degrees and diplomas aren’t what make me good at my job. It’s me. 

Have you had any mentors? 

I have mentors and people I can go to for advice. They don’t typically look like me so they can’t fully comprehend what I deal with in the workplace, though they can still provide guidance and advice. 

I have a high degree of admirability for Merck’s CEO Ken Frazier, particularly how he’s shaped his life. He’s an African American CEO of a Fortune 500 company — actually, a Fortune 50 company. He’s the grandson of a slave and his father was a janitor. He’s faced a lot of obstacles in his life and he shares those moments publicly, which I appreciate. It makes me proud to work for the company. He also has very high standards, because he has probably always had to be perfect. He doesn’t know me, but I really admire him. 

I think my perception of Mr. Frazier was further solidified when he stepped down from Trump’s manufacturing council after the Charlottesville incident. He discussed that decision at Merck as a matter of conscience, not business. Once it was announced, other CEOs expressed that they would have wanted a head’s up that he was going to step off the council. Mr. Frazier said, “Why would you need a head’s up? This decision was mine.” And ultimately, I think he was able to make that decision as a matter of conscience because he is a person of color. So often in the workplace, people of color have to hide who they are. When he had a moment to show himself, he demonstrated a level of integrity which I think is telling of who he really is. 

How would you recommend identifying potential resources and supports? 

I think it’s hard because I don’t believe in formal mentorships. It’s hard for it to be genuine if you’re just paired up with someone by the company. I wish I could say there’s some prescriptive method, and here’s how you do it.

I would say be genuine to yourself and you will naturally find people you’re drawn to and who are drawn to you. At the same time, you have to network and through that networking within your company you can find a relationship that might be able to build toward a mentor-like relationship. That person has to be willing to invest in you, to get to know you, to know your character. So instead of finding a mentor, find a deliberate network and identify who in your web you can work with. Send a note introducing yourself, and ask that person to coffee. And when you do, have something you specifically want to talk about. You can say “Here’s who I am, I know you’ve done this project or had this accomplishment…” Be thoughtful.

Do you have any useful advice you’d like to share that has been helpful in your professional space? 

It may be negative, but hard work doesn’t always pay off, and you shouldn’t be disappointed by that. Don’t let it knock you down. You will have situations where you’ve worked really hard and everyone loves you, and you still don’t get the results you want, or the recognition from leadership. You may think it’s you, or that you could have done something differently, but never stop being who you are.

While I’ve learned that I have to work very hard just to be in the running, one thing that can make a significant difference is learning who the decision-makers are in your organization. Who are the influencers? Who do you need on your side? If you’re not aware of those dynamics, you may just remain a hard worker that doesn’t progress. I wish I had known that a lot sooner, because I truly thought if I worked hard, I would get results. But this isn’t college. It’s not a test. The corporate world doesn’t work that way. 

What are you most excited about? 

I’m excited about my professional future just in general. I’ve learned a lot along the way, and I’ve gained a lot of really great tools. I realize that I am actually pretty smart, and it took a long time to feel that way. I felt insecure because I didn’t have an MBA. In college, I majored in international studies with a focus on public policy, so I thought I didn’t belong in the business world. I can say now that not only do I belong in this world, but I’m mastering it. So, honestly, I’m really looking forward to being the CEO of a Fortune 500 company someday. That’s my aspiration. And if I’m not, I know that I’ll be on the executive committee or a senior vice president somewhere, and I’ll work hard to get there. I believe in my own capability and have stopped doubting myself. 

Is there anything we missed or didn’t discuss that you would want to impart on someone seeking to move into the corporate world?

I would just offer that when you enter a workplace, be humble, and be willing to learn from others. I say this because I’ve noticed a generational mindset shift where the moment someone in their first year of working sets foot in the office, they think they should be leading meetings. They feel entitled to meet executives. And if they don’t get to do those things, they’re dissatisfied or unhappy. When I first started, I had to learn to print and staple documents for clients. I was reading through PowerPoint presentations to make sure the page numbers were correct. And guess what? That experience actually serves me today. Today, I’m reviewing those decks but now they’re going to the board, and the CEO. The same skills I learned when I was 21 years old, and I’m still putting them to use today. Be willing to take on any tasks no matter how menial or trivial. You’ll look back and be grateful for those experiences.

---

Please share this post with a friend, and follow us at @BlackWomenWorkIG!

Charlin Caster, Communications and Knowledge Manager

Hi, Charlin! Can you share what do you do and how would you describe it in layman's terms?

I’m a communications and knowledge manager with USAID as a contractor. I manage a USAID microsite focusing on economic growth, financial inclusion and market systems development. It’s a website where researchers and practitioners are able to have a central place to share their knowledge on economic growth and other resources. We have learning events, including webinars and seminars. We have a bank of resources and blogs, and a lot of very intentionally curated content. So the website really serves as a hub and provides a space for practitioners to form relationships with others who work in their same space. I manage all of  the activities on the site and the program itself, creating new partnerships and alliances with similar platforms around the world. 

Wow. It sounds like being in that role is both creative and technical. What is that like? 

I have a background in communications, but not so much in technical spaces. I have some framing from school, but a lot of it has been self-taught. I didn’t have a lot of the technical language, but I have gone to conferences, tuned into webinars, and I do a lot of reading to know what’s going on and to get familiar with the space. I also write a lot as part of my work, and it forces me to synthesize information and deepen my understanding. 

How did you get into this space?

I’ve always had an interest in doing international work. I was really interested in gender work, exploring the ways in which women are represented in an international space. So I found myself working on women’s economic empowerment. It’s meaningful work, and as for the project management piece, I’ve found that I really have a knack for it.   

What do you consider to be most meaningful about the work that you do? 

Probably that I’m getting to understand how USAID is approaching international development. There’s been more focus lately on capacity-building in the field and making sure those affected by the work are considered from the beginning. The sector is really trying to strip away the white savior mentality, and extract some of those values that are more reflective of western civilization. I’m not sure how effective it will be in the long run, but I appreciate that the “do no harm” mindset is taking root. People are really starting to consider, what are the unintended consequences of this work?  Even though I don’t directly implement projects, I get to share what’s happening, and that feels meaningful. 

What makes you uniquely suited to do what you’re doing?

I have good leadership skills. I’m compassionate, I have a big heart. And I have a genuine appreciation for the communities and the people we work with. I don’t want to be a part of a space that’s taking away resources or white-washing cultures because they’re coming from an uninformed place. 

I also feel I have the technical skills -- communications and management. And I have vision. I know that I want to revamp the site and make it more user-friendly. I have the foresight to think outside of the box in order to bring in a more diverse audience. 

How would you describe your leadership style and how does that influence how you manage others? 

I’m someone that seeks to empower others. I want to lead in a way where I’m not just directing, but asking people how they want to evolve. I recently just started managing two people, and I’ve been working with them to bring out their strengths, and to identify areas where they can grow. I’m also learning what does and doesn’t work for me personally in terms of how I’m managed. I don’t like being micromanaged, for example. I’m very communicative. If I’m responsible for producing something, I don’t like people to be in the dark about where that deliverable is. So overall, I just try to be  flexible, communicate well and often, and give people the opportunity to shine. 

Have you modeled your career after anyone? 

A friend of mine is a foreign service officer, so she’s not in development but she is working in the international field. She’s someone who is very pragmatic and poised, she’s firm but gentle. She has also allowed travel and living overseas to shape her and she takes up influences from different cultures. I appreciate that she has allowed her knowledge to be broadened. She isn’t just going around to these different placements trying to assert what we do in the United States. She has a genuine appreciation for societies and communities she’s lived in. I like that she is always in a learning position and allows herself to grow more. 

Do you get to travel? 

Yes, the first time I traveled for this role I went to South Africa for a conference. I’ve also gone to San Francisco, and Senegal. When I was interviewing, I asked if I’d have a chance to travel and they said at most I’d go to, like, Tampa. So my expectations were low. Then, early on, they asked me whether I wanted to go to South Africa, then an opportunity to go to Senegal came up. I’m excited. I’m always waiting for the other shoe to drop, like they’ll come back and say “Oh, you can’t go.” (laughs)

What do you want to do? 

I’d love to get into program design and implementation, and work on a program advancing women and youth in some way. I’m interested in getting into economic empowerment programs focused on those populations. I think I would approach it with a level of respect, and really center service to the community, ensuring our engagement is as beneficial as possible. It really excites me, the thought of doing interviews with different people, running needs assessments, working with the community to determine what would be most helpful. 

Are there any trends in your field you’re excited about?

I’m most excited about the emphasis on hiring local actors. For example, if there’s a development job in Tanzania, an NGO would try to have someone from Tanzania in that role and not someone from the United States, or the United Kingdom, or Australia. There are a lot of programs that are training people to run their own businesses. There’s a lot of tech programs that are scaling. And, as I mentioned before, there’s a shift away from the savior mentality towards inclusion and integrating the local community as much as possible. 

In terms of the communications field as a whole, how this work is messaged and packaged is also shifting as practices change. Tech is advancing so rapidly, and there are more and more ways to interact and connect with people globally. Social media alone has opened up so many doors. People are digitizing their resources and knowledge databases, and analyzing things and sharing with colleagues around the world. It’s cool, and I’m trying to stay on top of it all. There’s always something new. 

---

Please share this post with a friend, and follow us at @BlackWomenWorkIG!

0 LIKES