Ashley Harrington, Lawyer, Advocate, & Student Debt Expert

Hi, Ashley! Clearly I am very excited to finally sit down with you, and I’m so happy we found the time. Can you please share what you do? You can share whatever and however feels best.

I work at a policy advocacy non-profit called the Center for Responsible Lending, and I am our Director of Federal Advocacy and a Senior Counsel. I manage a lot of our federal strategy, in terms of our outreach to people on the Hill. Or outreach to regulators, or outreach to partners that we are in coalition with, around our policy priorities. It’s everything from weighing in on specific pieces of legislation, providing technical assistance to staffers or partner organizations, to saying whether we endorse or support something, to writing letters and sending an e-blast, organizing briefings and webinars. And just thinking through what will be effective on each particular issue, at any particular time. And one of my big roles is that I’m also the lead on our federal student loan work. That’s my big policy expertise.

Great. Since we’re in the time of a lot of hot debate around federal student loans, can you share a little bit more about your work on that?

I’ve been working on student loans for years but over the past two years or so we have really been gaining traction on the push for broad-based debt cancellation. We think it’s really important, because so many people are struggling with student debt.

Oh, trust – I know. [laughs]

You and I both have student debt, so we know for real for real, how it is. And it’s particularly hard for Black people. People of color in general, but Black people have it the worst. And, I don’t need to go into the reasons why because we already know why. So, we’ve been working on this for a long time. Back in the summer of 2019, we put out a big report with civil rights partners to show the effect that cancellation would have, even at the $10,000 level. This has been a really big campaign. Now, because of the COVID crisis, so many things that were only kind of possible before have been feeling more possible and more urgent. Never before has Congress passed a $2 trillion relief bill, followed by another $1 trillion, and now an additional $2 trillion is headed to the President’s desk, without explicit pay-fors. The rules are out the window, because everything is so crazy. We finally are at the place where people are talking about student loan debt relief in a real way, as a policy, and as a response to COVID. So, that’s really exciting.

This past summer we thought we had a major win, because the House put out their proposal, and it had some cancellation ($10,000) in relief for all borrowers. It didn’t end up making the cut, because we got word from the Hill that lawmakers ended up wanting relief for certain groups of people who are economically distressed, such as people who were in default before the crisis, or had an economic hardship deferment, or who would have been paying $0 payment on income-based repayment. But our position has always been, for one, that’s not the only way you determine whether someone’s in distress. And, also, it doesn’t make sense right now because individuals would have had to qualify for $0 payment, or be in default before March 12th. So, all the people who lost their jobs due to COVID would not get that relief. So, even as a specific response to this public health crisis we are in, it also didn’t make sense. And beyond not making sense, it’s inequitable.

Currently, we have been pushing for executive action on cancellation. President Biden can actually direct the Secretary of Education to cancel debt for federal student borrowers. There has been a major push by Democratic congressional leaders to cancel $50k in student debt per borrower using this authority. We joined with over 325 orgs in support of this resolution. We have done new reports, written op-eds, etc. 

We have made a lot of progress but we still have some who don’t think cancellation  is necessary. Like, yes, it will cost money but over a long period of time (and federal budget rules have actually already accounted for the loans) and money will also be put back into the economy. Also, so much of this debt is on track to not be repaid because the crisis is that unsustainable. And the economic benefits would be huge, in addition to the racial equity component.

At a high level, beyond Coronavirus, what are some of the long-term implications of student loan debt relief? Particularly for Black people and other POCs.

I mean, student loan debt is really holding us back. Black people are more likely to borrow, borrow more, and take longer to pay it back. So, this is something that is causing intergenerational problems. It’s the product of the wealth gap, and it’s reinforcing it. Because now, you have to go to college, and these are not choices. People act like you made the choice to go to college, but most of the jobs that pay well enough to live comfortably, to have benefits, require at least some college. And college is expensive. So, you have to pay for it. The Pell grant doesn’t pay for much of anything, and if you are a low-income student, your only option is student loans.

And, sometimes your parents have taken out student loans for you. And it used to be that parents could borrow against their house. But after the Great Recession, a lot of our folks don’t have houses, or have very little equity in those houses that they could borrow against. So, they have to take out even more debt. And so, it just builds on top of each other. And the fact that, if we want to be on par pay-wise, with our counterparts, we have to have more education. So, we have to have a grad school education to get what they are paid for just having a bachelor’s – for the same work. So, that’s even more debt. And so, it just builds on top of each other. And then, if you are doing income-based repayment, if you can never pay it off because the terms are 20 or 25 years, that’s like another mortgage. So, if you have this mortgage, how do you get the other mortgage? How do you get an actual house? How do you start an actual business? And then, how does that pass down to your kids when they get ready to go to college? You could realistically still be paying your student debt, while you’re paying for your kids to go to college.

So, this is just a cycle that we can never get out of, and it’s really problematic. It just makes it worse now that we’re in this crisis, where we’re more likely to feel the effects of COVID and the economic crisis we’re in. It’s hit our community harder, like all other social ills do. And when we come out of this, more people are going to be in default, more people are going to be delinquent, and our debt is still going to be there. Unless there is cancellation. 

Whew. It’s just so bleak. And exhausting. I want to switch gears a bit. Obviously you’re super passionate about equity. Particularly for Black folks, and the advancement of our community. And so, if you had to track an origin story, how did you come to this work?

It just sort of happened. I went to law school at New York University. I knew that I wanted to do work that I thought would impact people who look like me, and would make their lives and communities stronger or better. At first, that looked like being a public defender, and being a criminal defense attorney. That did not happen. But, I was a policy major in undergrad, so I ended up in policy. I did a fellowship in the governor’s office in New York where I worked on supplier diversity, and workforce diversity. When I left New York, I came to CRL, and this is an economic justice, anti-predatory lending advocacy agency. And so, I think that it became this idea of, the way that we help our community is, we have to have pathways to wealth-building. And traditionally, there are a few ways that people build wealth. They start businesses, they buy houses, and they go to college. Those are traditional pathways to the middle class, into wealth-building that we still don’t have enough access to. And the access that we do have is not actually leading to the outcomes that we want. And so, I think I came to the work from that sense. I think that it makes no sense that we have so many young Black people, who have “good” jobs, and “good” salaries, but still can’t buy houses or stock – because they have a student debt. And so many other things resulting from being the first to make as much as they do, and needing to support other people in their family or whatever the case may be. And so, that’s just the framework that I work in: how do we get to a place where we have our own wealth?

Is there some part of your background, your education, your experiences, that you feel have teed you up to be able to be successful?

I’ve been very privileged, education-wise. I was able to go to a really good school, the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, on a full scholarship. So, I didn’t have undergrad debt. My first debt was law school debt. And, I went to a school that has a good loan payment program. I’ve been provided a lot of opportunities from the people that I met, to the jobs that I was able to get. So I’ve always felt very privileged in that sense. I know about student debt from my own experience with student debt. But it wasn’t until I got to CRL, and I really dug into that and was like wow, this is a hot mess. I’m managing. I think we might both say we’re managing our student debt, which is fine. But there are so many people who are not. And it was like a light bulb.

I would also say that the way I think is helpful. I think I look at the world from that perspective of having been a little Black girl who was a Pell grant student. But I also had a scholarship for undergrad, as I said – the Morehead-Cain scholarship which covered everything. I actually went to high school in Chapel Hill, with really wealthy people. And I had a little 1990 Subaru in the parking lot, next to everybody else’s BMWs and brand new cars. But I had a really good education. I got to take algebra in seventh grade. So, there are all these different pieces that I think just impact the way you look at things and how you think about privilege, and your own place. And just feeling very responsible for making space for others who come from similar backgrounds but didn’t have as much privilege.

Right, absolutely. Are you excited about anything in particular, about what you could do, or might do next? Do you have a sense of what you want that to be when you grow up? [laughs]

I think next, I would like to work at a foundation. I think working in a nonprofit, we need funders. Being able to see how, when I get to work with Black program officers, or POC program officers, the way that they can move and influence work as people who have control over how money moves. I’ve seen how impactful that can be. And I think that would be my next step.

But I have complicated feelings.  Money is pouring into non-profits like ours. Money is not just pouring into politics. It’s pouring into non-profits. And so, there’s an opportunity beyond just waiting for Congress to do what they need to do. But there’s a part of me that feels that if we took all the money that all these huge foundations, run by wealthy white people, and we just gave it directly to all these Black people and other low-wealth folks, so that they can use it as a down payment to buy a house, or start a business, or invest. That would move the scale so much faster than the incremental change that we’re working for, in policy. So, I feel very, very frustrated a lot of the time, because there are resources that could fix these problems, but we are working in a system that’s slow and resistant to change because of course, the system is working as it was meant to work.

I think the work I’m doing now is important. I love it. I hope I’m having an impact. I hope that it is at least moving the needle some. But I can’t get over the feeling that there is a much more efficient, faster way to move this needle. If we, as an entire society, were actually interested in moving the needle, and not maintaining the status quo.

Word. So let’s end on a high note. What are you most proud of?

Right now, I’m most proud of the work I’ve been able to do during the crisis on federal small business relief. We have been working to increase equity and transparency in the Paycheck Protection program since it was first started last year. The PPP is a huge, now $800+ billion program that was/is shaping up to be basically a huge wealth transfer. With each new round of the program, our advocacy has helped make the program a little more equitable. This can mean the difference for so many Black and brown business owners and our communities. We need to save every single business that we can and that means this program needs to work for them. 

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Vivian Duker, Corporate Attorney

Hi, Vivian! So the first question is always, what do you do? And it doesn’t have to just be your nine to five. Obviously, you have other things going on. So, in whatever way you understand it, please share what you do.

My day job is as a corporate attorney. I currently work for a mid-sized law firm that has about 260 attorneys. I do mostly mergers and acquisitions, advising companies on sales and purchases of other companies. I mostly do it on the buy side, so my client is usually buying another company. I also do general corporate, which is pretty much advising companies on random things that come up day to day for any business that they might have. This spans the universe from, “We really want to terminate somebody, but we need to assess the implications around it,” to “We want to understand the process for adding people to our board of directors.” So, that’s what I do from 7:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. Some days I come home and I still have energy, and I will work on my budding fashion business that I’ve been trying to build on and off for ten years now.

Wow. That’s a lot going on!

Yes, girl. Especially being a lawyer, and because I picked one of the hardest possible legal paths. Nobody in their right mind does mergers and acquisitions and also tries to have other passions. You do this kind of work because you love it. And I don’t. Truthfully, I don’t really love it. I just love the process of doing something really hard. I love feeling like, there’s no way I can get that done, and then somehow I figure it out. So, balancing that has been challenging. But, a blessing has been that during COVID, it’s just created – weirdly – space to focus on other things.

Can you share more on those other things ?

The fashion business is called TLDR. My target market is specifically Black women, who work a lot and don’t want to have to think so hard about what they’re wearing. So, it’s no-nonsense pieces that integrate really easily into anyone’s closet. That’s my one baby. My other, new baby is Verified Black. The idea of Verified Black is to push social media platforms to implement a special verification process for Black businesses. And for the check mark, instead of it being blue, to be black so that you know you’re buying a Black-owned product. The verified accounts would have been vetted and confirmed as having a majority Black shareholding. Hopefully, that will drive traffic to Black businesses. It was born out of the sense that Black businesses need revenue, need exposure, need support. A lot of the existing frameworks around how you market yourself are disadvantageous to Black businesses because one, you need a lot of money to be able to put on an effective marketing campaign. Two, if you’re on social media, you have to be able to get verified to get more visibility. The metrics work against you because you almost have to have existing visibility and exposure in order to get verified, and a lot of Black businesses aren’t in that position. I think it’s only 2% of Black businesses in the U.S. now that have more than just one employee. Which is an indicator of, can you even afford to market yourself? So right now, Verified Black is a whole movement around amplifying Black businesses, which we hope will grow into something that actually makes Instagram address the issue.

That is so amazing, and much needed. Can you just share a little bit more about your background, and how you decided to get into corporate law. And then we’ll step a little bit more into some of your other endeavors.

Okay. So I was born in Ghana, and I lived there until I was in high school. And then, my parents sent me to the U.S. to get a better education, along with my brother. Anyone who has immigrant parents, especially African immigrant parents, will tell you that really, they’re like “OK, this costs a lot of money to do. So, you’re going to go be a doctor, or an engineer, or a lawyer.” They’re not trying to hear about your little fashion dream, or your cute painting hobby. They feel like you can just do that on the weekends. So, I said, all right – law sounds kind of cool. I like to argue and at the time, I really, really liked reading, which I still do but now I’m mostly reading stuff for work and not for fun. At the time, though, it felt like the natural path for me.

I went to high school in New Jersey, then I went to UNC-Chapel Hill, where I met you and all the wonderful people. I majored in economics, and I unofficially minored in African American studies. And, when it was time to do the thing I was supposed to do, I took the LSAT. I didn’t score as high as I wanted to because, even then, I knew it was something that I wasn’t passionate about. I was just checking the box. Then I got to law school. And the image in my mind of the attorney that I wanted to be, was very much centered around New York City, and a really cute suit, click-clacking down the street. And I was like, OK, corporate attorneys do that so that’s what I’ll do. In law school, I did make a point to explore all the other stuff just to make sure. So, I threw myself into litigation activities to see if I wanted to be in a courtroom. Or if I wanted to be in front of people speaking all the time. And it was just a solid no for me. So, afterwards I just focused my attention on getting into corporate law.

After law school, I worked for a judge for two years. Then I went back to Ghana, got barred there. And then, that was actually my first exposure to corporate practice. Because I worked for an all-women, woman-owned firm in Ghana, that does cross-border acquisitions. And, I got the coolest mentor. She’s fantastic. But she taught me pretty much everything that formed the foundation of my corporate law practice. And then, I just came back to Baltimore and continued down this path.

I love that it was an all-women firm. That’s so cool.

Yep. A team of twenty-six and all the lawyers were women. She always joked that we had to get better about recruiting men, but I loved it.

Wow. Oh my goodness – what an amazing experience that must have been. So at this point, you’ve checked all the boxes. When did you realize that is what you were doing – just checking boxes?

Ooh – freshman year of college. I have never been super interested in the education process. It’s weird, because once I learn a thing, I’m really glad that I learned it. But the process of learning, it always felt so constrained and artificial to me. And I could tell from the beginning, that I was doing a thing that I didn’t care so much about. I was going to my philosophy class and doing all of these requirements at UNC, because this institution needs to make money so you have to do all of these things. And, I had to pick a major that made me sound serious for law schools. But what I really would have loved to major in is art, or fashion, or something that I was actually interested in. And so, I think from college, I very clearly knew that I was checking a box, and it reflected in my work. It always felt like work, and it has felt like that pretty consistently since then. The moments in which it doesn’t feel that way is when I’m actually impacting people with things that matter. Verify Black doesn’t feel like work. Working with Black-owned businesses doesn’t feel like work. Making clothes that Black women will wear, and that will make them feel beautiful, doesn’t feel like work. Creating feels good.

Tell me more about what your schedule looks like overall, including your nine-to-five, and all of these creative endeavors?  That’s a lot to manage plus the mental shift that is required.

So, unfortunately, I don’t really have a schedule that’s consistent. Mergers and acquisitions is mostly deals. So, if you have a deal that’s ongoing, and deals usually span anywhere from six weeks to maybe six months, you’ll be really busy. At any given point, I’m on at least three, and at most I’ve been on eight at once. So it’s insane, and then a deal will wrap up and there’s a little more free time to do other things.

When I first got this job at my current firm, I felt the burden to really prove myself and establish that, as a Black woman, I can do this. Because Black women don’t go into M&A practice. Generally, the numbers of Black people in law are low. And then, when we do go into the law, understandably, we’re more oriented towards justice-based areas of practice. Or at least, developing skills that lend themselves to that. So, we are more likely to litigate. And then, if we’re going to do transactional work, we’re going to do labor and employment. Because that feels more people oriented, and we can actually make a difference with people who are being treated unfairly. So, at the bottom of the list is M&A. And then, of course, for Black women, all of the cards are stacked against us. So, by the time I got to do M&A, it was like, oh, I’m really here now. And I threw all of my time and energy into work. I would get in at seven in the morning. I’d be there until midnight, one o’clock. I was living there. I had an air mattress in my office just in case.

So this past year, I’ve really had to learn to say no. First, for my own mental and physical health. But then, also, being disciplined about pursuing the things that really mattered to me. There are times where I would usually say, “Yeah, I could totally take on that deal,” on top of the four that I was already doing. Now I say, “No, I’m maxed out.” Then I still have to deal with my own imposter syndrome, and feeling like this decision will probably make them feel I don’t work hard, or I’m not good enough. I remind myself, OK, there has to be a limit to how much you’re willing to sacrifice the things that you care about, and your body, and your mind, just to continue to send a message about you belonging in a particular space. So that’s a long winded way of saying, it used to be really crazy. But now, I try to make sure that I set aside an hour or two every day to sketch or paint or work on the fashion thing. Or I’m just reading something that fits in with all of this stuff that I care about. I like to write a lot. So, I’ll set aside an hour to read scripts of movies that I’ve seen before. It’s so fun. It’s so nerdy, but it’s a lot of fun. It’s a cute little hobby that helps my brain.

So, I’m interested to just hear the origin story of TLDR, and how that came about. And you said you’ve been working on it for 10 years. So, what’s that process been like?

I actually don’t get to talk about this a lot. So, I’ve always been interested in fashion. Ever since I was little, I figured out that you could do two, or three, cuts to your socks, and then turn it into a little off-the-shoulder tube dress for your Barbie dolls. And I was doing that to all my socks when I was little, and my mom was mortified. I would be sketching clothes all over my notebooks.

A friend of mine, who I knew in Ghana, reached out with an idea to set up this online marketplace for African designers. It was the first time that somebody had actually presented me with this tangible opportunity to do this thing I’ve always been obsessed with, and it would also create opportunities for people. So, we started working on this idea together. And then, for reasons why startups fall apart, it just didn’t work out. But, it was part of the reason why I moved back to Ghana. Because, I really wanted to look into it, and figure out if it was feasible. I was reaching out to a lot of designers, gathering a lot of information and realized the biggest barrier to the thing that we were trying to build was that Ghana and most African countries really do not have reliable garment production. Or supply chain mechanics for their fashion lines. So, you have people producing these capsule collections, of just a few pieces per style, because that’s all they can afford to do. Or they’re selling it in a bespoke way — so you place an order, then they make the product. That was not a sustainable model for the thing that I was trying to do. So, my big dream is to be able to create African-based production facilities, which actually benefit these designers. But that’s an expensive dream. TLDR was my idea to fund this bigger dream. Because, I’ve always been able to design easily. I’ve been in an accelerator for fashion businesses. So, my hope is to just translate those skills into a smaller thing, that can slowly start to build some revenue to do the work that I really, really want to do in Ghana. And, eventually all of Africa. That’s the big goal. It’s been a long-ass journey, but it’s also half the reason I keep my job. Because I have to fund this dream.

That is really compelling and I love that it involves all of these skills you’ve acquired and are acquiring, and has this incredible equity orientation. It all connects. That’s really dope. So, as you think ahead five years, or whatever feels right to you – what’s next? What are you excited about for the future?

So, I’ve been grappling with this question, in all of the quiet time during COVID. So, my goal is to transition from practice to fashion or some kind of creative-adjacent work eventually. I don’t know that I can work at this pace, at this level of intensity, and in these stressful conditions, for much longer. But then, there are other things about what I’m doing… there are student loans. Lots of them. And I also feel a responsibility as a Black woman to make partner. Not so much for me, but because when I entered this space I had no Black women mentors who are in corporate. And there are so few Black women who are partners at a top 200 firm. I recognize the whole concept of, ‘you can’t be what you can’t see’. And being in this space, I understand the importance of having the voice of a Black woman in the room. When I go speak at law schools, or I meet people at the Black Law Student Association, and they say “You do corporate? For real?” I’m like, “Yes and you can, too. You’re going to work a lot, but you’re smarter than everybody who’s doing it. I promise you. You can totally do it.” So at least if I make partner, I will be able to say, I did it, and I really did it for real. And then maybe I can put this part of my life to bed, and go do things that I love.

Is there anything I haven’t asked? Is there something that you think is super critical, particularly for Black women who are professionals or aspiring lawyers, that we haven’t discussed?  

I do want to echo something that you said before the interview, about community, and having a community of Black women. And how impactful that has been. Because a lot of times when you take on these really daunting things, it can feel really insular. I was the only Black woman in my group, for a really long time. But, every time I would get around other Black women, who are all basically living parallel experiences, or dealing with the same kind of imposter syndrome, or the micro-aggressions – just all the craziness that just comes with working in corporate America. Those moments for me, were so affirming. I don’t even have to say much, they just get it. Because, we’re dealing with the same things and there’s this tacit understanding of support, and constantly being pushed by these people. People don’t understand just how nourishing that is, to have that. And so, I think that’s something that I want to echo. That’s been a really, really key part of my growth process. You just need those friends that are dope, who really get it. Build that community.

Yes, yes, yes. And on that note, it’s a wrap! Thank you, Vivian.

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Elizabeth Humphrey, Attorney

Hi, Liz! What do you do and how would you describe it to someone unfamiliar? 

I am an attorney, and I recently started working for a school law firm. We represent schools, school districts, colleges and universities. It’s a pretty niche area, but essentially encompasses any legal issue that schools have to deal with -- any type of litigation or contract issue that comes up. So like if a school is accused of discriminating against an employee, not providing appropriate accommodations for a child with a disability, or something more serious like an accusation of a campus sex assault and the school is implicated for its response to investigating it. We also do some legislative advocacy. 

That is so interesting, and it does sound very niche. So what brought you to this space? 

I just happened upon this particular practice area. Before starting with this firm, I was working for a federal judge and I was in that role with the court for five years. My term was ending and I started applying for jobs. My current role seemed cool because it is one of the few places you can practice constitutional law that’s not in the criminal arena. There are so many issues that come up that wouldn’t come up in other sectors -- free speech, academic freedom, discrimination. It’s not set in stone that I’ll remain in this practice area, but I can develop some nice litigation skills that will be transferable. I can grow. Also, I’m an advocate for good work/life balance which I have in this space. 

Can you describe your path to becoming a lawyer?

I’ve known I would be a lawyer since I was five years old. I stood up on career day in pre-kindergarten and said “I’m going to be a prosecuting attorney.” In undergrad, I was a political science and anthropology double major. Then I went to the University of Texas School of Law, and took the bar the summer after I graduated. I died a little bit (laughs) and I passed it in November. I came out of law school at a terrible time. The economy was bad, and I wasn’t able to find a job. I was scraping to put something together for those first two years out. I worked with a solo practice personal injury attorney. I didn’t like working with him because he used contingency fees -- basically, eat what you kill. I needed a salary, and there was some inappropriate work behavior from him. After that I started working with a classmate of mine and her mother doing civil litigation. While I was working with them, I started my own firm doing estate planning, tax defense, and some transactional work. I really enjoyed that, and I think I could have made it work longer, but it would have been hard to learn the legal and business aspects of maintaining my own practice. 

And throughout that process, what has been a meaningful moment of realization -- good or bad -- that you’ve experienced?

I think one positive is I know more than I realize I know. Someone will ask me a question and my mind will just start working and things come out that I didn’t know I knew or could articulate. I have realized recently that I don’t know whether law is all that I should be doing. I went to law school seeking to integrate my anthropology degree into my practice. I haven’t done that at all. It’s a happy realization but also made me wonder what have I been doing for the past several years. I’m thinking that my current job, with its focus on school law, might be a good opportunity to find overlap. It could be a really awesome opportunity to examine certain cultural issues, and how they intersect with our legal system. 

Can you elaborate a bit more on your realization around wanting to integrate anthropology into your law career?

Last Sunday, I was reading an article that referenced Margaret Mead and Franz Boas, and I started crying. I realized this is what I’m supposed to be doing and I’m not doing it. I felt happy and sad. I’m passionate about the human condition, how we create societies, how those societies are reflective of who we are and who we don’t want to be. Law can be so regimented in some ways, and detached from the personal impacts of its application. In that way, it misses the mark a lot of the times. And a lot of the practice of law is tough -- it requires being adversarial, talking someone down for no reason. There are people who can’t eat and don’t have access to clean water. There’s so much more to self-actualization than getting a job that pays the bills. And at the end of the day, I don’t want to spend any part of my life doing something that isn’t meaningful. 

What makes you uniquely suited to do what you do?

I think that I’m a good listener. I’m good at hearing what’s underneath what people are saying. I have a curiosity about what people are saying -- just wanting to know why. I think that I’m good at asking the right questions. I’m a good writer, I’m hard working. 

What excites you about your future? 

Possibility. The fact that I can do anything, honestly. I’ve embraced the concept of “yes, and…” Before, I was like, “I have to quit my law job to pursue anthropology full time!” And now I know that no, I can do both. I’m excited about the fact that anything is on the table -- I believe in myself and that I can do anything at any point in my life. I can be a professor, I can be a judge, I can stay home with my babies. And any way it goes, I’ll be fine.

What is your support system like, and what value do they lend to your life? 

Mostly my mom and dad. My parents are very grounding. They have good intuition and a perception of me that is so clear it’s scary sometimes. They provide a lot of affirmation that the questions I’m asking about my life are the right ones to ask. They’re a source of comfort, and assure me that it’s OK not to know everything. They constantly remind me “You are where you are for a reason, and God has you here on purpose. Trust your position.” 

My yoga people are very supportive, too. They are fun to be around, and they’re positive. When I’m having a shit day and I’m struggling, they’re like “I get that.” They don’t try to minimize it and they’re comfortable being in it with me. 

Given how your own career trajectory thus far, what advice would you give someone seeking to find their own path? 

Form relationships! Invest time in getting to know those who are ahead of you, in spaces similar and spaces that are not at all similar to your own. There’s more overlap than people think between industries. Sometimes you’ll hear something from someone in a different arena, and someone may not be having that conversation in your space. So you can bring that knowledge into what you do. Never discount anyone. All people have something valuable to offer even if you don’t think they do. If you’re talking to someone not as far along in their career as you are, it is still valuable because you’re pouring into someone else. There’s value in doing that for that person, and there’s value in feeling good from doing that and knowing that you have something to offer someone.

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