Natalie Dean, Founder of Whine & Cheese, Inc.

Hi, Natalie! So let’s start with your “9-5” job. What do you do for a living?  

Hi! So full-time I work for the American Federation of Teachers, which is a teachers union based in Washington, D.C. Specifically, I engage our more than 3,000 local affiliates on a special project called Share My Lesson, a website where we give educators free resources to be able to successfully teach, manage, and work with students and make sure they’re successful.

My background is in corporate and crisis public relations. For about eight years of my career, I worked at fast-paced PR firms. When you’re fresh out of college and working in corporate and crisis PR it can be very overwhelming. I remember having to have two Blackberrys at the time, and having to take my work Blackberry on vacation with me. So, you know, when you first start in your career in your early twenties, that’s exciting, right? “Oh, I got an extra Blackberry. I’m traveling for work and I’m employed by the top PR firm and get to work with these major brands.” Then, a few years in, you start to experience burnout, and you think, wait a minute, is this really my dream job? But I felt that I had to take on that persona of having it all together, or to at least look like I do. Because I was too young to look burnt out, plus I was one of very few Black women, the youngest one on my team, and I worked for one of the highest-ranking Black women in that particular office and didn’t want to let her down. I was going to grad school at night. I was in a new city. So I could not fail.

Right. So many people can relate to that, I think. Especially Black women. The “work twice as hard” mentality. 

Right, and so what happened —  I would keep a space heater at my desk and one day I went to bend down to turn it on, and I was in so much pain. I went to the doctor, and she couldn’t figure it out — she thought I pulled a muscle. So she sent me to physical therapy and on the very first session, my physical therapist is like massaging my back and asking me what’s going on in my life. I’m telling her about my job, and grad school, and that I’m trying to buy a house. I’m just going down the list. And she’s like, “Oh, that’s awesome but, um, this isn’t a pulled muscle. This stress is manifesting in your body as this pain you’re feeling.” That’s when I realized, wow — I thought I was doing a good job making it look like I have it all together. But on the inside, my body is screaming, No, you don’t girl! That’s when I decided, maybe I need to start looking at a position that doesn’t require so much of my time. I ended up at an education startup that needed a PR manager. The startup was jointly owned by the Teachers Union and that was the start of my transition.

And so from there, how did your nonprofit Whine & Cheese come about? 

In the midst of that transition I realized how stressed I was, but had been holding it in. I started having conversations with friends and admitting how I felt. Slowly but surely they started admitting the same. Like, girl, adulting is not what I thought it would be! (laughs) This whole job thing is way more stressful than I imagined. I thought I was more prepared! And I realized that while our experiences may not have been identical, the emotions behind them were. So I said, okay, these are conversations that I’ve been having with friends that live in different cities. But I know I need women here in my area, so that we can get together and safely say — sometimes with our words, other times with just a look or a sigh — “I’m struggling. I need help.” And to also say to my network that their support is valued and important to me. And to be able to give the gift of community to each other. So I started an organization called Whine & Cheese, a forum where we could express, reflect and reset without pretense. 

That’s incredible. And how would you describe the evolution of Whine & Cheese over time to what it is today? 

It actually didn’t start as an organization. It started as a casual girl’s night in. I invited a few friends and asked everyone to bring a plus one, if they wanted. We all got together in my girlfriend’s living room. I decided that it was not going to turn into a pity party. So while we were definitely going to complain about all that was going on, we were also going to counter those emotions by recognizing and verbalizing all the ways and reasons we still had to be grateful. So we whined, but then we also cheesed or, you know, named things that made us smile.

I love that! And I’m embarrassed to say I didn’t connect the “cheese”  part of the name until just now. (laughs) So let’s sit with this for a second. Can you describe a little bit more about how some of the first Whine & Cheese sessions went? And when did you decide, oh, this could be a thing? 

So you’re asking me to think back ten years. (laughs) But that first night, and remember it was a group of 11 of us and I had probably invited five. And then, some people brought a plus one.

Right, yeah. 

So, there were familiar faces, but we didn’t all know each other. And that actually provided a space for us to be even more open with one another. The first few gatherings, we went deep. We shed tears, we prayed, we held hands. And it was like, Oh my gosh, this was the relief that I didn’t know I needed. So we started doing that every month, or every other month. There was no real formality to it. Our attire was very “show up as you are.” Like, you don’t have to get cute. This is an opportunity for you to let your hair down. So I also think that helped with the atmosphere of people feeling comfortable.

We were doing that for a couple of months and then, I was on the phone with a girlfriend of mine in New York and I was telling her about it and just how helpful it had been. And she said, “Oh, I want to start that in New York.” And I was like, uh no, it’s mine. (laughs) And then it couldn’t have been a day or two when God was like, how could you see how beneficial this has been for the women that you’ve been getting together with and not share this with other women? It was as though He was saying, like, how dare you? So I said okay, I hear you loud and clear. I put a format together. The main rule is that you start with your whine and you end with your cheese. So we’re always ending in a space of gratitude. And I called my friend back up and I said, “Here it is, it’s yours. Run with it!” And since then, she told a friend who lived in Charlotte, who told a friend who lived in Atlanta. And well, we’ve launched over 30 branches since. 

Wow! Congratulations.

Thank you! Thank you. It’s interesting because we’ve really not done a lot of promotion. Everything has been organic. It’s been a lot of word of mouth, which confirms for me that this is a need that women have. And initially, it was all women, whoever wanted to join. At some point, though, I had to acknowledge that the women who were showing up were Black women, between the ages of 25 and 40 at the time. They were the ones who needed this space the most. For a long time, I was hesitant about saying this is an organization for Black women because I didn’t want it to feel exclusive. But at the end of the day, this is who is showing up. So why not create a space that calls us out and calls us in?

Yes. That is so awesome. And is it still, I mean, if someone else were to show up, I’m just curious…?

They’re welcome, but with an understanding of the space. . .I’m trying to figure out how to word this. You are welcomed as a woman, but most of the resources and the conversations are geared toward those who identify as Black women. So if you can find your footing in this space — the way Black people have had to for so long — then you are more than welcome. But I decided to be true to the women who showed up for this. as our membership evolves, our offerings will reflect that, but for now this is what it is. 

Right. And so how did you come into the role of spacemaker?  It can be very hard to do. There’s a delicate way of having to kind of manage different personalities and needs. What do you think prepared you to step into that role?

I wish I had a really good answer for you on that one. It’s  like the Maybelline tag line, you know. Maybe she’s born with it. (laughs) I feel like, you know, innately since I was a young girl, I’ve been a connector. I’m very much introverted, but when I find my people, I turn up and turn on. When I like your energy, I’m just like, come be a part of my people. I just adopt friends and family along the way. I think that part of me has also translated into professional spaces. I’m the colleague who, people — specifically Black women, but, others as well — will come to and say, “Hey, do you have five minutes? I just need to think through this idea.” Or, you know, “I need another perspective on this.” And it’ll become a closed door, hour-long conversation by the time we’re done. So I can’t pinpoint what prepared me for Whine & Cheese other than God and what He placed in me, you know? 

What do you think you’ve personally gained from Whine & Cheese, as a participant?

Oh, gosh. It has given me some amazing relationships. The very first branch that I launched, we were together for six and a half years before there were life changes and relocations. And then, I ended up starting another branch. So, as a participant it’s given me lifelong friendships and bonds. Your friendships are a reflection of who you are, and usually you pick friends that feel safe or that you share some commonalities. But to be able to connect organically with women who you may not have been friends with otherwise, I think has given me a greater perspective and understanding of myself, and opened me up to new and unexpected things. These women have been able to pour into me in a way that I have just never felt before. And that’s not a knock to my day one friends, but there’s something special about being able to form friendships as adult women.

Yes! Yes, that’s so tough!

And, you know, there’s no pretense with Whine & Cheese. There’s no, what can you do for me? It’s just, I want to see you win, sis. And that gives me a renewed hope. When I see that among women — who I believe are the head of society, the changemakers — I get a renewed hope for what this world can be. And, then, I’ve been introduced to so many other gifts and talents that either they poured out, or that have been brought out of me. And just having this cheerleading squad. There’s a  whole list of benefits.

Incredible. I mean, what a wonderful space you’ve created. So, how can women get involved? 

That’s a good question. So to join Whine and Cheese is very simple. Just go to our website https://foreverywhine.org/, and sign up. In light of the pandemic and other life changes that have kept us apart, I've been searching for a way to bring us all together on a safe, yet personal level. So recently, we launched a mobile app to connect women in the same area and around the country. We’re a non-profit organization now, which I decided to incorporate in 2014, so a portion of the membership fee is tax deductible. Once it’s safe, if members want to start a branch, or small group, with other members in their city, that’s certainly an option and points back to the foundation of our organization — being able to move away from the screen and interact in person. 

Once someone decides they want to start a branch, I would schedule a call with her to be sure that this is the right fit. Not so much to vet them, but because there is a responsibility one must have to the collective when deciding to facilitate a safe space for women. So we’ll have a conversation, and then I’ll walk them through the very easy process of getting started. I literally have a framework for them to follow. Within the app, we share everything from funny memes and songs that get us amped, to affirmations and daily devotionals. We host regular events via Zoom that help achieve our personal and professional goals and we also have an annual retreat where we can get together for a long weekend to bond and build community. The last retreat was in this beautiful 15-bedroom villa in Orlando. We had so much fun! So after the country tackles the Coronavirus, we will be planning the next one. So yeah, that’s how it works!

Wonderful. This was incredible and I’m so impressed with what you’ve built and how you’re managing it. Thank you so much for sharing, Natalie!

Of course. Thank you!

Natalie (center) and members of Whine & Cheese.

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Vivian Duker, Corporate Attorney

Hi, Vivian! So the first question is always, what do you do? And it doesn’t have to just be your nine to five. Obviously, you have other things going on. So, in whatever way you understand it, please share what you do.

My day job is as a corporate attorney. I currently work for a mid-sized law firm that has about 260 attorneys. I do mostly mergers and acquisitions, advising companies on sales and purchases of other companies. I mostly do it on the buy side, so my client is usually buying another company. I also do general corporate, which is pretty much advising companies on random things that come up day to day for any business that they might have. This spans the universe from, “We really want to terminate somebody, but we need to assess the implications around it,” to “We want to understand the process for adding people to our board of directors.” So, that’s what I do from 7:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. Some days I come home and I still have energy, and I will work on my budding fashion business that I’ve been trying to build on and off for ten years now.

Wow. That’s a lot going on!

Yes, girl. Especially being a lawyer, and because I picked one of the hardest possible legal paths. Nobody in their right mind does mergers and acquisitions and also tries to have other passions. You do this kind of work because you love it. And I don’t. Truthfully, I don’t really love it. I just love the process of doing something really hard. I love feeling like, there’s no way I can get that done, and then somehow I figure it out. So, balancing that has been challenging. But, a blessing has been that during COVID, it’s just created – weirdly – space to focus on other things.

Can you share more on those other things ?

The fashion business is called TLDR. My target market is specifically Black women, who work a lot and don’t want to have to think so hard about what they’re wearing. So, it’s no-nonsense pieces that integrate really easily into anyone’s closet. That’s my one baby. My other, new baby is Verified Black. The idea of Verified Black is to push social media platforms to implement a special verification process for Black businesses. And for the check mark, instead of it being blue, to be black so that you know you’re buying a Black-owned product. The verified accounts would have been vetted and confirmed as having a majority Black shareholding. Hopefully, that will drive traffic to Black businesses. It was born out of the sense that Black businesses need revenue, need exposure, need support. A lot of the existing frameworks around how you market yourself are disadvantageous to Black businesses because one, you need a lot of money to be able to put on an effective marketing campaign. Two, if you’re on social media, you have to be able to get verified to get more visibility. The metrics work against you because you almost have to have existing visibility and exposure in order to get verified, and a lot of Black businesses aren’t in that position. I think it’s only 2% of Black businesses in the U.S. now that have more than just one employee. Which is an indicator of, can you even afford to market yourself? So right now, Verified Black is a whole movement around amplifying Black businesses, which we hope will grow into something that actually makes Instagram address the issue.

That is so amazing, and much needed. Can you just share a little bit more about your background, and how you decided to get into corporate law. And then we’ll step a little bit more into some of your other endeavors.

Okay. So I was born in Ghana, and I lived there until I was in high school. And then, my parents sent me to the U.S. to get a better education, along with my brother. Anyone who has immigrant parents, especially African immigrant parents, will tell you that really, they’re like “OK, this costs a lot of money to do. So, you’re going to go be a doctor, or an engineer, or a lawyer.” They’re not trying to hear about your little fashion dream, or your cute painting hobby. They feel like you can just do that on the weekends. So, I said, all right – law sounds kind of cool. I like to argue and at the time, I really, really liked reading, which I still do but now I’m mostly reading stuff for work and not for fun. At the time, though, it felt like the natural path for me.

I went to high school in New Jersey, then I went to UNC-Chapel Hill, where I met you and all the wonderful people. I majored in economics, and I unofficially minored in African American studies. And, when it was time to do the thing I was supposed to do, I took the LSAT. I didn’t score as high as I wanted to because, even then, I knew it was something that I wasn’t passionate about. I was just checking the box. Then I got to law school. And the image in my mind of the attorney that I wanted to be, was very much centered around New York City, and a really cute suit, click-clacking down the street. And I was like, OK, corporate attorneys do that so that’s what I’ll do. In law school, I did make a point to explore all the other stuff just to make sure. So, I threw myself into litigation activities to see if I wanted to be in a courtroom. Or if I wanted to be in front of people speaking all the time. And it was just a solid no for me. So, afterwards I just focused my attention on getting into corporate law.

After law school, I worked for a judge for two years. Then I went back to Ghana, got barred there. And then, that was actually my first exposure to corporate practice. Because I worked for an all-women, woman-owned firm in Ghana, that does cross-border acquisitions. And, I got the coolest mentor. She’s fantastic. But she taught me pretty much everything that formed the foundation of my corporate law practice. And then, I just came back to Baltimore and continued down this path.

I love that it was an all-women firm. That’s so cool.

Yep. A team of twenty-six and all the lawyers were women. She always joked that we had to get better about recruiting men, but I loved it.

Wow. Oh my goodness – what an amazing experience that must have been. So at this point, you’ve checked all the boxes. When did you realize that is what you were doing – just checking boxes?

Ooh – freshman year of college. I have never been super interested in the education process. It’s weird, because once I learn a thing, I’m really glad that I learned it. But the process of learning, it always felt so constrained and artificial to me. And I could tell from the beginning, that I was doing a thing that I didn’t care so much about. I was going to my philosophy class and doing all of these requirements at UNC, because this institution needs to make money so you have to do all of these things. And, I had to pick a major that made me sound serious for law schools. But what I really would have loved to major in is art, or fashion, or something that I was actually interested in. And so, I think from college, I very clearly knew that I was checking a box, and it reflected in my work. It always felt like work, and it has felt like that pretty consistently since then. The moments in which it doesn’t feel that way is when I’m actually impacting people with things that matter. Verify Black doesn’t feel like work. Working with Black-owned businesses doesn’t feel like work. Making clothes that Black women will wear, and that will make them feel beautiful, doesn’t feel like work. Creating feels good.

Tell me more about what your schedule looks like overall, including your nine-to-five, and all of these creative endeavors?  That’s a lot to manage plus the mental shift that is required.

So, unfortunately, I don’t really have a schedule that’s consistent. Mergers and acquisitions is mostly deals. So, if you have a deal that’s ongoing, and deals usually span anywhere from six weeks to maybe six months, you’ll be really busy. At any given point, I’m on at least three, and at most I’ve been on eight at once. So it’s insane, and then a deal will wrap up and there’s a little more free time to do other things.

When I first got this job at my current firm, I felt the burden to really prove myself and establish that, as a Black woman, I can do this. Because Black women don’t go into M&A practice. Generally, the numbers of Black people in law are low. And then, when we do go into the law, understandably, we’re more oriented towards justice-based areas of practice. Or at least, developing skills that lend themselves to that. So, we are more likely to litigate. And then, if we’re going to do transactional work, we’re going to do labor and employment. Because that feels more people oriented, and we can actually make a difference with people who are being treated unfairly. So, at the bottom of the list is M&A. And then, of course, for Black women, all of the cards are stacked against us. So, by the time I got to do M&A, it was like, oh, I’m really here now. And I threw all of my time and energy into work. I would get in at seven in the morning. I’d be there until midnight, one o’clock. I was living there. I had an air mattress in my office just in case.

So this past year, I’ve really had to learn to say no. First, for my own mental and physical health. But then, also, being disciplined about pursuing the things that really mattered to me. There are times where I would usually say, “Yeah, I could totally take on that deal,” on top of the four that I was already doing. Now I say, “No, I’m maxed out.” Then I still have to deal with my own imposter syndrome, and feeling like this decision will probably make them feel I don’t work hard, or I’m not good enough. I remind myself, OK, there has to be a limit to how much you’re willing to sacrifice the things that you care about, and your body, and your mind, just to continue to send a message about you belonging in a particular space. So that’s a long winded way of saying, it used to be really crazy. But now, I try to make sure that I set aside an hour or two every day to sketch or paint or work on the fashion thing. Or I’m just reading something that fits in with all of this stuff that I care about. I like to write a lot. So, I’ll set aside an hour to read scripts of movies that I’ve seen before. It’s so fun. It’s so nerdy, but it’s a lot of fun. It’s a cute little hobby that helps my brain.

So, I’m interested to just hear the origin story of TLDR, and how that came about. And you said you’ve been working on it for 10 years. So, what’s that process been like?

I actually don’t get to talk about this a lot. So, I’ve always been interested in fashion. Ever since I was little, I figured out that you could do two, or three, cuts to your socks, and then turn it into a little off-the-shoulder tube dress for your Barbie dolls. And I was doing that to all my socks when I was little, and my mom was mortified. I would be sketching clothes all over my notebooks.

A friend of mine, who I knew in Ghana, reached out with an idea to set up this online marketplace for African designers. It was the first time that somebody had actually presented me with this tangible opportunity to do this thing I’ve always been obsessed with, and it would also create opportunities for people. So, we started working on this idea together. And then, for reasons why startups fall apart, it just didn’t work out. But, it was part of the reason why I moved back to Ghana. Because, I really wanted to look into it, and figure out if it was feasible. I was reaching out to a lot of designers, gathering a lot of information and realized the biggest barrier to the thing that we were trying to build was that Ghana and most African countries really do not have reliable garment production. Or supply chain mechanics for their fashion lines. So, you have people producing these capsule collections, of just a few pieces per style, because that’s all they can afford to do. Or they’re selling it in a bespoke way — so you place an order, then they make the product. That was not a sustainable model for the thing that I was trying to do. So, my big dream is to be able to create African-based production facilities, which actually benefit these designers. But that’s an expensive dream. TLDR was my idea to fund this bigger dream. Because, I’ve always been able to design easily. I’ve been in an accelerator for fashion businesses. So, my hope is to just translate those skills into a smaller thing, that can slowly start to build some revenue to do the work that I really, really want to do in Ghana. And, eventually all of Africa. That’s the big goal. It’s been a long-ass journey, but it’s also half the reason I keep my job. Because I have to fund this dream.

That is really compelling and I love that it involves all of these skills you’ve acquired and are acquiring, and has this incredible equity orientation. It all connects. That’s really dope. So, as you think ahead five years, or whatever feels right to you – what’s next? What are you excited about for the future?

So, I’ve been grappling with this question, in all of the quiet time during COVID. So, my goal is to transition from practice to fashion or some kind of creative-adjacent work eventually. I don’t know that I can work at this pace, at this level of intensity, and in these stressful conditions, for much longer. But then, there are other things about what I’m doing… there are student loans. Lots of them. And I also feel a responsibility as a Black woman to make partner. Not so much for me, but because when I entered this space I had no Black women mentors who are in corporate. And there are so few Black women who are partners at a top 200 firm. I recognize the whole concept of, ‘you can’t be what you can’t see’. And being in this space, I understand the importance of having the voice of a Black woman in the room. When I go speak at law schools, or I meet people at the Black Law Student Association, and they say “You do corporate? For real?” I’m like, “Yes and you can, too. You’re going to work a lot, but you’re smarter than everybody who’s doing it. I promise you. You can totally do it.” So at least if I make partner, I will be able to say, I did it, and I really did it for real. And then maybe I can put this part of my life to bed, and go do things that I love.

Is there anything I haven’t asked? Is there something that you think is super critical, particularly for Black women who are professionals or aspiring lawyers, that we haven’t discussed?  

I do want to echo something that you said before the interview, about community, and having a community of Black women. And how impactful that has been. Because a lot of times when you take on these really daunting things, it can feel really insular. I was the only Black woman in my group, for a really long time. But, every time I would get around other Black women, who are all basically living parallel experiences, or dealing with the same kind of imposter syndrome, or the micro-aggressions – just all the craziness that just comes with working in corporate America. Those moments for me, were so affirming. I don’t even have to say much, they just get it. Because, we’re dealing with the same things and there’s this tacit understanding of support, and constantly being pushed by these people. People don’t understand just how nourishing that is, to have that. And so, I think that’s something that I want to echo. That’s been a really, really key part of my growth process. You just need those friends that are dope, who really get it. Build that community.

Yes, yes, yes. And on that note, it’s a wrap! Thank you, Vivian.

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Kharmika Tillery Alston, Real Estate Broker and Entrepreneur

Hey, Kharmika! So in whatever terms feel best, can you describe what you do?

I’m a real estate broker. I help people buy, sell, and invest in real estate. I sell commercial and residential real estate, including land and leases. I’m also what I consider an aspiring social entrepreneur. I would like for the transactional nature of real estate to translate to real results for people, with a greater social impact. For example, there are people where nobody in their family has owned a house. A woman told me the story of how her grandmother lived in the same house for 35 years and it was considered the family house. When her grandmother passed away she was surprised to learn that her grandmother never owned the home. Or, take millennials, who have had a really tough time accumulating wealth. When the pandemic occurred, our generation  had barely recovered from the recession in 2008/2009, and have remained saddled with student loan debt, consumer debt, or even medical debt. So I’m building a business that supports those who are likely to experience anything from run-of-the-mill discrimination to redlining when buying a home. I work with anyone and everyone — first-generation property owners, millennials, Zoomers, and especially those from marginalized groups who have suffered because of the racial wealth gap. 

I can also share the reason I consider myself an aspiring social entrepreneur. I don’t want to sell real estate at a high level forever. I want to get to the point where the cash flow allows me to contribute to the community philanthropically. I want to disrupt the way nonprofits work in our community. You’ve seen organizations that have one Black person on staff who is of the community. Meanwhile, everyone else at that nonprofit has achieved real wealth and can afford to work for less competitive salaries, or they have a wealthy partner and don’t need to make a high wage at this nonprofit and take that pay cut. I want to disrupt that. I want to promote people from these communities and who are of these communities having a real say in the economic development of these communities. That’s a long-term goal. 

With those particular outcomes in mind, how do you tailor your approach or the way you run your business? How do you make sure you attract that diverse group of people you want to empower? 

I have a website called LiveLoveDurham.com, which is the main way I connect with folks. I’m thinking of overhauling it to focus less on real estate, and more lifestyle or community-oriented. If you look at the blog section, there is lots of curated content to educate people, but on the bio page I’m explicitly announcing my job and brokerage. I think I may take that out because many real estate agents avoid having real conversations around race, class, and ethnicity for fear of violating the Fair Housing Act. We aren’t supposed to discuss protected classes during the transaction. But conversations outside of the transaction on race and class are needed to  move the conversation forward. So I might take off that identifier so that I can discuss the things I want to discuss and how I want to discuss them. LiveLoveDurham.com also has a connected Instagram page, where I say I move past the transactional nature of real estate to have curated conversations and give my insights, not only as a Black woman living here, but also as a millennial. It’s real estate and community development from my vantage point. I also provide a lot of free and helpful content there through my Instagram TV videos. 

How did you arrive at this philosophy of service? 

I was living in Amsterdam, finishing the last leg of what I had intended to be my long-term federal government job. I wanted to start buying real estate, and was wondering where I should buy. I decided I wanted to buy somewhere in a community that I felt part of, and one that I could afford. So then I started looking at the market in Durham more closely, because I went to UNC Chapel Hill nearby for undergrad, and Duke for my master’s degree, and my husband was born and raised in Durham. It felt organic to come back here after living overseas for a few years. I would look at trends and saw there were a lot of articles like “best quality of life in the South,” or “best place for millennials” -- on and on, for entrepreneurship, for women. I thought, Woah, Durham is getting all of these accolades! 

We moved back stateside, to Durham, and I transitioned from my government job to working for a community bank — what they call a CDFI [community development financial institution]. A CDFI is a designation out of the Department of Treasury to essentially indicate that a particular bank serves the community better than, for example, Wells Fargo or Chase, and that’s based on a congressional act. Like you need to better serve the communities where you are physically located by providing valuable services such as mortgages, small business loans, etc. CDFIs began as an answer to that. So I did that for 15 months while I worked on getting my real estate license. What I learned is that Black people and Latinx people to a lesser degree really don’t benefit from all the affluent accolades the Triangle area has been receiving. There’s still really large wealth disparities. I thought, What can I do in my real estate vertical to improve these socioeconomic trends? That is where LiveLoveDurham.com came in, where I began highlighting POC-owned businesses, artists and creatives, and then also providing really distilled tips on real estate that anybody can just read and understand. There is so much information out there that isn’t helpful or is positioned as helpful but is actually intended to drive a profit. There’s so much misguidance. 

You’ve just named a few, but can you share some of the common obstacles people in marginalized communities face in terms of real estate opportunities? What are some of the experiences you’ve noted?

The racial wealth gap prevents people from having capital to invest. Because wealth is relative, there are people in real estate who don’t realize that putting twenty or thirty thousand down on a home is not within a lot of people’s capability. I had a client that inherited $160,000 from her aunt and used half of it to put down on her house. There are people who think that’s run-of-the-mill. Same at the CDFI where I worked after returning to the States. I worked with food businesses, and people would tell me about how they bootstrapped their way to building a business. Come to find out, their parents gave them a $10,000 loan to start the business. That’s a well-documented trend. The Pew Research Center says that friends and family invest $90 billion per year in their loved ones’ businesses. But that’s not the case for Black people. If anything, we have a significant capital gap. That impacts our ability to get a real estate loan, or to live in certain neighborhoods. Even some of the programs designed to close the racial wealth gap aren’t cutting it. The FHA has a product where you only have to put 3.5% down of the total purchase price. But you may only get qualified for $120,000. That’s not going to get much in Durham. Also, the racial wealth gap has a real, tangible impact on small business owners who want to buy or invest in real estate and thrive. 

I’d like to hear more about your background. You brought up your time in the State Department, and then you moved on to the CDFI. When you look back on all of these experiences, do you feel there’s some throughline that kind of pulled you to this point?

The throughline was seeking entrepreneurship, the ability to innovate, and to see results. When you work in government, your ideas, things like progress and improvement, results — those aren’t concepts in government. Government is all about the status quo — incrementalism, if that. I looked around and felt like, OK, everyone seems fine with relishing in mediocrity. I’m working three to four times harder than everyone else. So this presents an overworth on my part to this agency, but I can take these talents to where there isn’t a ceiling, and my hard work gets better results. I wanted to go somewhere I could be compensated monetarily and fulfilled. I wanted to get a return on those efforts emotionally, mentally, and financially. That’s what made me think, where can I go? 

Let me back up. I started in the State Department at 24 years old. At that time, I didn’t know all capitalist-driven workplaces thrive on the ideas of others without adequate compensation, specifically Black women. I didn’t know it wasn’t just the State Department. It’s everything. It’s everywhere. It wasn’t just at the community bank, or Wall Street banks. Just...period. Think about where our community would be if Black women just disinvested all their time and energy from white-led organizations, and put those efforts into their community? Our community would be leaps and bounds ahead of where we are now. 

Go off, Kharmika! 

It would be transformative, right? Once I had that epiphany, I had to move on. When you work for the government, you’re a representative for the government 24/7. Your opinions don’t matter. You just share whatever talking points they want you to share. That was very unsustainable for me once I felt like I was really seeing things clearly. And that dissatisfaction became especially resonant during what felt like rampant impunity and lack of concern for Black people being killed by police and during Trump’s presidency, specifically his first 100 days in office. In 2016, police killed more than 250 Black people and yet that remained unaddressed. There was so much gas-lighting and I had to participate in it. I’d reassure our Dutch counterpart that nothing has changed, everything is business as usual, we are hired to defend the Constitution, etc. I was regurgitating all of that but it’s like, who wrote the Constitution? I realized that I had all of these unchecked notions of patriotism, and I hadn’t examined these universal truths or beliefs. But they don’t apply to me and my rights, and they weren’t created with me in mind, so why am I defending this document? So as July 2017 approached and my tour in Amsterdam was set to end, I decided it was a good time to end my career with the State Department. 

We don’t get the acknowledgement or recognition we deserve as Black women. I think about how that journalist said he couldn’t focus on Representative Maxine Waters’ comments because of her “James Brown hair.” This is one of the longest-standing members of Congress. Or when [journalist] April Ryan was in a White House Press Corps briefing and shook her head as [former press secretary] Sean Spicer was speaking, and he condescendingly told her to stop. A few years later, an Asian-American journalist [Weijia Jiang] challenged the President when he directed her to ask China about the coronavirus. She was able to do that because April Ryan set the precedent for challenging authority in that space. Yet in this more recent incident, the journalist was praised and April Ryan, at the time, had to defend her actions. And so again I’m asking if acclaimed journalists and distinguished members of Congress can’t get recognized for their contributions, then what chance do I have? I can’t keep doing this for thirty, forty years. I had to break free. 

So looking ahead, what impact are you seeking to create with LiveLoveDurham.com, and what are your next steps toward that vision? 

There are certain financial and economic milestones I need to hit before I tell other people how to build their own wealth. I would like to sell real estate at a very high level, and then make sure that I’m always making space for those who wouldn’t ordinarily get a second look for certain properties. Even now, I try to put that into practice. I just got off the phone with a cosmetologist who was looking for commercial space, and had little idea about what is involved in that process. Many people would easily have hung up on her because it was clear that she was just starting out, and her understanding isn’t as sophisticated yet. But in helping her, my hope is that in five, six, seven years, she can support others and pay it forward. 

I also want to continue creating wealth for my family and myself, and learning how to create generational wealth. We need to know what it’s like working for ourselves at a high level, and a lot of Black women and men pour into these organizations we work for, with little to show for it in personal wealth. For example, think about how many Black women are teachers. Teachers in North Carolina get paid so little, despite giving so much to the community and to their students. And yet, the state doesn’t respect teachers which has a fairly large representation of Black women. I want to make sure we take care of ourselves, no matter the work we do or what background we’re coming from. So that’s the vision, empowering myself and my family, and creating generational wealth, while helping others do the same. 

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Hiwote Getaneh, Podcast Producer and Host, Depth & Candor Podcast

Hi, Hiwote! Let’s start with the basics. Can you share what you’re currently doing?

Sure! I’m a contracted podcast producer at Magnificent Noise, a podcasting production and creative agency. Have you heard of Esther Perel’s podcast, Where Should We Begin? I work for that podcast! I am also working for an upcoming TED podcast. The rest of my time, I’m working to build my podcast Depth & Candor into a business. 

I’ve been working on turning it from a side hustle into a business since October 2019, and it’s been quite a transition because I’ve always been a good worker and a good student, but being a good entrepreneur requires a whole other set of skills. I’ve been unlearning my old ways, and embracing testing my ideas without a roadmap. I’m also learning to have enough discipline to not be distracted or sidetracked by the small things that look like extensions of the business, but aren’t actually part of my vision. 

Can you share more on building Depth & Candor? 

Depth & Candor is a podcast and newsletter for the young Black woman who wants to live a very fun and meaningful life.  I interview women who fit that mold — women like Myleik Teele, Jovian Zayne, and Nicaila Matthews Okome who are living full lives. These three women are all great examples of people who have created the space to define and pursue their own definitions of a vibrant life. I also like that they’ve created businesses rooted in supporting other Black women to be their best.

The podcast has been running since January of 2017, and it originally started as just me showcasing the stories of each guest. Now, I’m at the point where I can dedicate time to making every episode actionable in addition to being entertaining. I want the audience to walk away from each episode motivated to define and pursue their own version of a vibrant life.   

That’s such an amazing intention. How do you see Depth & Candor evolving from where it’s at now?

For the next few months, I want to be in the phase of monetizing by pitching sponsors/brands. My dream in the long run is to create a space with resources for young Black people to get their voice out in the world. There’s a small barrier to entry for podcasts — it’s low but it’s not free. So if someone wants a great mic or wants to take a class to learn to be a great storyteller, or to build the skills to make their interest into a fruitful venture, I want to have a space where young people can get those resources. I would want it to be free for the people who need the resources, and so I need to figure out how that could be monetized through sponsors or brand partnerships. Another potential model is to have a production company where I would create podcasts for clients, and part of the revenue could pay for a space for others to create their own media. 

That’s so interesting. You mentioned something that really stuck with me in an episode of Depth & Candor — one in which you shared your own story. You spoke about how you’ve learned to appreciate failing as part of finding your purpose. Can you share more on that?

I was a super achiever as a student so failing was the one thing I didn’t want to ever do. As I look back at my early twenties now, most of my “safe” decisions were actually failures because they just extended my time away from what I was actually interested in doing. On the other hand, had I not done all of the things that I have, I wouldn’t have the knowledge or skill set to do what I do now, or to do it with the same level of quality. 

I should back up a bit for context. When I went to grad school for public policy, on day one, I knew I wasn’t inspired or happy. But I’d gotten into Johns Hopkins which is this great school, and I felt like I just couldn’t squander this opportunity. So I fought for the next two years for something I didn’t even really want, but I didn’t have the language to express why I didn’t want it. When I graduated, I took a policy research job. I learned a ton, but I only stayed for three years because I didn’t know how to find a career I actually enjoyed. And so while it could be considered a failure that I spent too long there, I try to think of it as “failing forward” because I try to use what I learned in each experience, and apply it to whatever new situation I land in. 

And so how did you get from there to producing podcasts?

In January of 2018, I vowed to get a job producing podcasts and I applied to a lot of open roles, but I didn’t hear back from anyone. I eventually left my policy research role in August of 2018 to work at Mic as an account manager. I wasn’t producing a podcast, but I was grateful to have found a role that was at least in the same industry as the one I wanted to be in. When Mic got acquired by a bigger media company, I worked as a marketing manager at AfroPunk, until I met a podcast producer on the train who would eventually help me change my career trajectory. 

A friend of mine and I were leaving Elaine Welteroth’s book launch in June of 2019, and we were sharing what we thought about the event when a woman behind us said “I’m so sorry to eavesdrop. I’m here capturing audio, and I feel like you’re part of the audience we want to capture.” She asked us what we had thought of the event, so we spoke with her and shared some of our thoughts. When I asked what audio was for, she told me that she was a podcast producer. I was thinking, Cool... aren’t we all? (laughs) Then she tells me that she produces the Where Should We Begin? podcast — one of my favorite podcasts. I couldn’t believe it. When the train came, we got on and sat separately, and I kept thinking, I have to say something. There’s a big part of me that is socialized to figure things out on my own, so asking this stranger out to coffee to see if she’d be willing to speak to me about her podcast felt like a big move for me. 

Ultimately, I approached her and asked her to coffee, and she was so nice about it. Coincidentally,  we met for coffee the day before my birthday and I told her how much fun I had been having celebrating, and she said, “No way! I have the same birthday!” So a thirty-minute coffee date turned into a two hour conversation. We talked about all the things we wanted for our careers. She’d worked at NPR for several years and had launched and ran another major podcast. When I asked what she was currently doing, she said that she had started a podcast production company, and that there might be some things she could pull me into.  At the time, I was just starting to get the lay of the podcasting landscape, so that was an incredible offer. Eventually she asked if I’d like to work with her production company part-time while continuing to work on Depth & Candor. I accepted her offer and quit the marketing job I had at the time. I still think about how it was a split-second decision to speak with this woman on the train that changed everything. It’s essentially a professional meet-cute. (laughs)

It is a professional meet-cute! I love that. So much of what you’ve shared reminds me of something I’ve realized about my own tendencies throughout my life. I’ve heard it called “box-checking.” Essentially it’s this idea that you can get so caught up in doing all of the things you’re told to do — go to college, get your degrees, go into specific, acceptable careers. It sounds like you went through a similar journey of realizing how box-checking can really distract you from seeking truly fulfilling work. Can you share more about that journey, and what you have learned? 

I was definitely a workaholic. I think it’s worth saying that a lot of what I learned in changing my behavior came from going to therapy. And understanding that my value and my worth exist simply because I’m here. My value isn’t tied to anything I’ve done or any of my accomplishments. Learning that lesson is a continuous practice for me because I tend to go back to that place of fixating on what I have and have not accomplished as a measure of my value. The truth is that that fixation drives so many of our decisions as a society. I don’t think you would necessarily be worse off if you kept checking boxes and doing what felt safe, but it’s not an emotionally sustainable mindset for me, and rooting myself in corporate stability is an illusion. Abandoning that mindset has left so much room for joy and a real sense of community. I don’t have to spend every second of my life perfecting my work. 

You mentioned earlier that you like to do things on your own. Did you have to learn to ask for help? 

I’ve actually always felt pretty good asking my friends for help. Or even with listeners who tell me how much they love my podcast, I will say “That’s awesome, but what would you change if you could?” Or, “What else could I do to make it better?” And so in that way, asking for help isn’t hard. But for me to ask for help from someone I don’t know — that was really difficult to learn. 

I’m taking an entrepreneurship class at the Google Learning Center. A couple of weeks ago, I pitched my podcast business idea in front of the group. When I finished, I knew I didn’t do well. I realized it was because I had never pitched to strangers — only people who knew me. So I’m learning to be open to hearing how others who I don’t know perceive my ideas, and getting their constructive feedback. Learning to take up that much of a stranger’s space is weird. I keep thinking, “Is this how white men feel?” (laughs) But it’s also energizing because I’ve realized in letting new people interact with my half-baked ideas, that there are so many opportunities I hadn’t previously thought of. You can’t do that sitting at home in front of your computer, or in talking to the same people who already know you or your business really really well. In March, I’m going to do a live show for Depth & Candor because I shared a half-baked idea with someone I don’t know very well. She was like, “Live shows are what I do — let’s make this happen!” 

What other things have you done to continue growing in your craft?

So earlier I told you that I am a great student and need to learn to be a great entrepreneur. Like any good student, I would do my homework. I listened to all the podcasts and I read all the books on entrepreneurship, digital marketing, etc. But I wouldn’t give that advice to another person trying to learn. I think sharing your own ideas and testing your products is actually the better way to learn. I don’t know if that is going to be true for everyone, but as someone starting out, I’ve found that sharing ideas and testing products with people to be the most powerful. 

That being said, some podcasts have been helpful. I’m a student of Nicaila Matthews Okome’s “Podcast Moguls.” I’ve taken Amy Porterfield’s email marketing course and Seth Godin’s marketing seminar. All three of these people also have podcasts you can listen to and learn from. And even though this isn’t directly linked to learning about my craft, Oprah and Deepak Chopra’s free twenty-one day meditation course has really taught me how to calm my mind. If I don’t ground myself, I tend to start spinning and just doing things, which means I start leaning into my old habits as opposed to working with intention. And finally, I’ve taken a bunch of storytelling and copy writing classes on Skillshare, which is an affiliate of my podcast.

Coming full circle, what would a world look like for you to create that ideal space for Black people — for learning, growing successful businesses, and to finding joy and fulfillment? 

Our people carry a lot of trauma. We play nice with people who don’t look like us and often fail to treat ourselves and each other well.  In my dream world, all Black people would have access to a therapist they love, and that would help more of us to cultivate our liberation and joy. We live in a crazy time and we all need to be civically-engaged, but the first thing we have to do is truly love and empower ourselves.

POSTSCRIPT: Here’s what Hiwote has been up to since her original interview with Black Women Work some months ago.

Since we last spoke, so much of my world has changed! I'm now working full-time as a podcast producer at Magnificent Noise, which has been a huge blessing given the economic climate. 

Over the last few months, we launched and finished a season of the New York Times show, Together Apart, which is all about how people maintain connection during a pandemic. Our last two episodes were about centering Blackness and Juneteenth, and they are two of my favorite things that I've ever produced — probably because it was super gratifying to make something Blackity-Black with the New York Times. And now, I'm working on a podcast series for TED called Pindrop and the seventh season of Depth & Candor, which will be exploring the ins and outs of Black joy!

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Subscribe to Hiwote's Depth & Candor podcast on iTunes, Spotify, or Stitcher.

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Vanetta Schoefield, Comedian and Founder & CEO, Funny Hunnyz

Hey, Vanetta! I’m so glad we’re able to do this. Can you share more on your entertainment company, Funny Hunnyz?

I was already producing comedy shows and it was my birthday, and so I wanted to do a show with all women. I wanted it to be cute, so I was like, I’m going to call it Funny Hunnyz. Plus, all the dudes will come out if I have an all-female lineup on my show. (laughs) That was how I started it. It felt really good to put on, everybody was funny, there were good vibes. I felt empowered doing it, and the women who were on the lineup felt empowered by being a part of it. I loved that. So it was kind of an accident that it turned into what it did, but it went well so I just kept doing it. At one point, I thought, I’m spending a lot on this. Maybe I should do something to ensure I get some money back. So I LLC’d it because I was spending so much money and time on it, and it felt like I should build it up. It became a passion for me. Eventually I started to focus on content and not just shows, so I started a podcast. I was doing a lot and failing fast to get Funny Hunnyz to a place where it could be successful and what I envisioned. It’s like if Comedy Central and Lifetime had a baby, but a ratchet baby. (laughs) It’s just a funny way to tell women's stories because every woman is different. 

That's so dope. You said you were failing fast to make Funny Hunnyz successful, which I find interesting. What lessons did you learn that allowed you to adjust, and to improve? 

Well, it depends on which failure you want to focus on. (laughs) I made the failure of thinking I had to spend a lot of money or have a lot of connections to do what I wanted. But ultimately, it takes hard work and dedication. You can’t cheat the process for something you want to build organically. You have to come into the process every day with an open mind, and be positive. You can read a lot of sh*t, but it won’t help with your unique experiences. It just won't prepare you. I’m not trying to say that reading isn’t helpful, but you have to be willing to keep an open mind, and be ready to learn and receive lessons from wherever.

We met in college, and I was surprised when I saw you had started your comedy career. I’m interested to know how you transitioned into comedy, from what you may have had in mind back when we were in school.

I think it ties back into failing fast. I used to look at a lot of the things I did before comedy as failures. I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do, but I knew I wanted to help people. In college, I wasn’t interested in the classroom. I was the most active bitch I knew. (laughs) I was in every club, and super active in the community, but I hated class. In my senior year, I found out that I had a learning disability and it really messed with me. I was waitressing at the time, and I thought, I’ve always been great with people. So I moved to Greensboro and that’s when I got into entertainment. I kept waitressing, but I also went into sales, radio...the common denominator was always people. 

I have really been enterprising my people skills in different ways and in different areas. I realized that I wanted to be myself and get paid to be myself. I always just wanted to be me — never anybody else. That’s worth fighting for, but it has been a very interesting journey. Everything I've done has prepared me to run Funny Hunnyz. Even though I didn’t finish school, I’ve gotten a degree in me, and being the best I can be. I think of stand-up and all that I’ve done while in New York City as like my college experience, because I’ve done everything. I have done a lot of courses in comedy itself, voice acting, stage acting, producing, being on the stage and behind the scenes...I can do everything. I’ve gotten a studio certification and did everything I’d need to do to run a studio. Now I’ve been working on managing clients, and making managing comedians a greater focus of my business. It’s been a wide range of study, I guess. (laughs) 

It’s incredible that you have so many technical skills that build into your overarching vision. That’s super impressive! So, given all that you’ve done and can do, how would you define yourself and your work?

It’s really difficult actually. It’s been hard. Many people told me to stick to stand-up. A lot of stand-ups — they’re haters. (laughs) They’d tell me to just stick to stand-up, and that all of my other projects and interests were distracting me from getting better at stand-up. My impression was like, OK, so you see me as a threat to you because I can do more than you. But the way I look at it is that I can help them. I like helping comedians a lot more than I like doing my own stand-up. I’m grateful for my experience with stand-up, though, because it has allowed me to  better understand my clients and the people I work with. 

I read [author Robert T. Kiyosaki’s 1997 book] Rich Dad Poor Dad. It has changed the way I view life and what I’m meant to do. In one story, the author writes that he advised a woman who wanted to be a best-selling author to take a sales course. She said to him “I have two degrees, why would I need a sales course?” His response is to hold up his book, which is a bestseller, and he says something to the effect of, “It says best-selling author, not best-writing author — I know how to sell.” So that changed the way I understood my role in things. I would like to be a little bit of an Olivia Pope and a little bit of Shonda Rhimes for women in comedy and entertainment. 

You’ve mentioned a few times that you feel best when you’re helping people, and how you’ve made helping others a focus in your career. When did you come to this realization? 

It’s funny because I’ve been on some therapy and self-healing, so I actually have the answer for this. (laughs) I think it stems from not being helped when I needed it, although I’m healing now. A lot of my initial desire to help came from, you know, that a lot of people have to work through trauma. For me, it was like a high to help them reach and be their best selves. And then you’re like, how couldn’t you love me, I’m the best, see? I’ve helped you! I think that’s where it started, and then I just realized I was good at it. And it’s fulfilling. But that’s where it comes from. 

In comedy, being a woman, you know...there’s no HR in this sh*t. (laughs) Our office is a club. Our co-workers are mostly dudes. Right now, me sitting with you at 11 a.m. with my glasses on is more professional than any other comedian you probably know, because most of them are still in bed, hung over. (laughs) They don't have a business sense in the way they handle themselves. So I’m like, I can help them. And, of course, I just hate how women are treated in society. I loved my sexuality studies courses in college, and I’m really passionate about the treatment of women, how little women are helped or offered support in our world. And, you know, women are used and abused in entertainment. So all of that is happening around me, too. With Funny Hunnyz, I feel like I can do something about it. I’m not just going out to march with a sign. And so that is also where I think my desire to help comes into play.

How do you feel you’ve worked that equity-oriented perspective into the way you create content, or produce material and shows? 

I’m in the process of rebranding. I’m putting more thought into how Funny Hunnyz does comedy distinctively, and how our perspectives as women are incorporated into our jokes. I’m one woman, and my personal point of view isn’t necessarily the point of view that I want to represent Funny Hunnyz. So I circumvent that by booking all women so every show has a variety of content, and I pay every woman I work with. A lot of women don't get paid in general. Even if they’re on with a big comedian, the woman is typically opening for them. So I make sure everyone gets paid, I only book female headliners, and about 85 percent of all staff — the photographer, the director, everyone — are women. I love that. I will say, women DJs are expensive! (laughs) They charge twice as much as male DJs. When you book a guy, they’ll be like “GIve me whatever.” Women DJs are like, “That’ll be $225...an hour.” (laughs) So, you know, balance. 

You’re so savvy. How did you get to this point? How did you learn the business so well?

I stalk everyone on Instagram. (laughs) Everyone who knows me well tells me that I should be an FBI investigator because I’m so good. (laughs) But I do stalk people and I learn about them, and check out what they’re doing, how they’re doing it. I wasn’t even active on Twitter, but I got back on once I got to New York. One night, it was probably two o'clock in the morning, and I’m on Twitter. I see that Amanda Seales tweets that she’s moving to Los Angeles, and she’s selling this painting. I saw it, and it spoke to me. I think it was fifty dollars, and I’m like, it’s Amanda Seales! She’s a creator, a comedian, she does music — she does it all. I felt like it would be dope to have a piece of art by her. 

When I got to her apartment, she handed me the painting, and a flyer for her comedy show, and told me about how she’s moving to be part of a  web series. We had the same sketch teacher, Brandon Bassham, and we talked about that a bit, and finally I’m like, “Hey, I would love to be a writer for you.” She’s like “well…”  But I’m persistent, and it’s Amanda Seales! I’m in her apartment! Picking up a painting! Of course I had to be like, what’s up? Let me come to LA! (laughs) Finally she’s like “Sis, start your own sh*t. Do your own thing. Be empowered.” That was the last thing she said to me, and it stuck with me. And from then, anybody I met at comedy shows, literally anybody, I would network with them. Anybody where it felt like I could work with them, or under them, or we could collaborate. You can take something from anybody around you, and so I just tried to learn from everyone I met and worked with. You have to really look out for yourself, because nobody is going to help you. When they’re looking out for themselves, they’re not looking out for you. I realized I had to look out for me, and find or create opportunities to grow and get smarter.  

That’s a great story. So, in short, Amanda Seales told you to get your stuff together and go do you. (laughs)

Basically Amanda Seales sonned the f*ck out of me. (laughs) No, but it’s all love. I can't wait to see her at the Oscars to tell her, “You told me to start my own thing, sis — I did it!”

I love that you still have her painting. 

I do! And I’ve had seven moves since I’ve been in New York. (laughs)

Do you feel as though you’ve found your groove? What else do you think you want to do? What’s next?

I feel good in the space I'm in. I know that I’m building Funny Hunnyz the way I want to build it, that it’s in my vision, and I know where the brand is going. I know where it’s going, and I’ve been particular about who is associated with it. The way I’ve evolved, I’ve really made myself step up. I’ve become a better woman in order to run my brand in the best way. I know we’ll be a female, black-owned studio. And I know that with the way I work, and how efficient I am, my whole team is going to be the same way.  We’re going to be able to make a movie in a week. (laughs)

I’m ready. I’m ready to showcase what black women can do in the entertainment industry. I follow in the footsteps of amazing black women and black brands. I want to work with them, and I’ve reached out, but it hasn’t happened yet. I know I have to work to get the Funny Hunnyz brand up to their standards. It’s been difficult to get in with them, though. I hate to say it, and I’m not trying to diss black women at all, but white women have been super willing to help and collaborate. When I sent out calls to create content around the quarantine, no black women were interested, but white women were available. Given what I want Funny Hunnyz to look like, that’s problematic, because I’m trying to get us to make these videos like, “C’mon sis!” It shouldn’t feel like pulling teeth, but I do think that when you have a vision and it’s early on, it’s hard for people to see that vision as clearly as you do. Sometimes I think that until I get onto BET or Refinery29, people won’t quite understand what I’m trying to do. I hope it won’t take that long, but I’m betting on me. But that’s what it is to be an entrepreneur. I have to do everything I can, and remain at the forefront, and keep creating, until they see it. 

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Fallon Carter, Owner + Principal Planner, Fallon Carter Weddings + Events

Hi, Fallon! You own a weddings and events business. Can you share more on what that looks like?

I’m an event planner, specializing in destination events. I coordinate weddings and other social events. I like to consider my work as creating experiences that people never realized they could have. 

How would you describe the path that brought you to the events space? 

I was fresh out of college, and I had a finance job at an aerospace company. A friend of mine got married in Paris, and when I attended as a guest, she needed my help actually pulling it off. I jumped in, and I ended up helping to pull off this incredible wedding. I realized, wow -- I’m good at this! In particular, I realized that I’m good at managing chaos. So it occurred to me then that being an event planner may be an opportunity for me. Originally, I wanted to go into policy and then law school and change the world. But I recognized weddings as an easier opportunity to create impact for people, because you don’t have to manipulate Congress. (laughs) And it has worked out, and now it’s been over ten years. 

And in that ten years, was there a particular moment when you realized you had really hit your stride?  

Yes! I managed an event for a major corporate client that required us to work with 1,200 guests. On the day-of as the guests are arriving, the fire department shows up asking for a permit the client hadn’t secured. They were threatening to shut us down. I was absolutely panicked. So I turned on the charm, and sweet-talked one of the firemen and managed to get us off the hook. I got all of these beautiful people into the party and the client nor the guests ever knew anything happened! Moments like that just make you feel like you could do anything. Even just living in New York City, and keeping the lights on, being able to live alone in my amazing apartment. I feel like, wow, look what I have created for myself. 

What part of your job feels most fun?

Aside from the international travel and just being able to visit crazy, gorgeous places? (laughs) Honestly, I think my favorite thing is to take a client’s idea and crank it up a thousand notches. Being able to say, “That’s a good idea, but what if we spun it around and did this other thing?” They’re always so blown away. 

You create really incredible events. Can you share a bit more about your approach? How do you pull it off?  

The first thing I do when organizing an event is set up my timeline. I get the day organized and ask the client what they think. One thing I always ask is “What’s the surprise and what’s the delight for your guest?” This is something they don’t often think about that can take their event to the next level, creating the optimal guest experience. I always try to think from their perspective. When they walk into the venue, what do they smell? What do they taste? What do they see? It should be like theatre. It should be a multi-sensory experience. 

How have you evolved as an entrepreneur?

It’s not for everyone but it’s so exciting. If you can figure out how to manage your business and hone it, it can be fruitful. I can’t say I want to still plan weddings when I’m 70 years old. I get excited about multiple, different ideas. As I get more comfortable in my current position, I find myself seeking ways to be more uncomfortable. I want to learn how to try new and different things. So I am now trying to keep an eye out for other opportunities where I can take the knowledge I’ve learned from building this business -- since I now know that I can build a business -- and build other businesses. 

What makes you uniquely suited to do what you do? 

My feathers don’t ruffle easily. I’m fairly calm -- I have a good temperament. I’m not overly emotional, which is key when I’m coordinating weddings where everyone is extremely emotional. (laughs) I’m also decisive. I like puzzles and math so coordinating an event with 20 different vendors and different call times and bringing things in and loading things up and figuring out the best way to do what we need to do with the time we have -- yeah, I love it. 

And, I also like production. For every event, I’m creating a guest experience. So when I am thinking about the timeline, I’m zeroing in on potential places where there may be dead time. Then I’m thinking, Okay, people are finishing dinner, they’re looking for something to do. How we can get the guests up and dancing? 

How is the industry for Black women? 

There are tons of Black women doing weddings, but there aren’t many doing luxury -- weddings that are well over $100,000. A lot of people are getting more open-minded now, too, and I find that a lot of people are actually intrigued by a Black woman doing luxury events. It almost attracts clients, and I honestly don’t feel invisible or overlooked at all. They see the work I’ve produced, the publications I’ve been featured in, and realize that I’m someone they want to work with. 

There are definitely clients who will think you don’t know what you’re doing or who won’t trust your vision at first. I’ll go into an event and someone will “mansplain” as though I haven’t been doing this for 11 years. Or they will be looking for the person in charge and walk right past me. I’m not concerned. If anything it feels like an opportunity to show them what I can do. I also try, whenever I can, to bring another brown or Black person into the space and create an opportunity for one of us. Even someone younger, to show them the ropes. 

When you think about your career trajectory, what advice do you think you’d share with a young black woman starting out? 

I think as Black women in professional spaces, sometimes we have to be so many people within the span of a millisecond. Do your best at being your best and learning who you are. My real success came when I found a space where I could be me in every way. You can be anything on the planet you want to be, but focus on being you -- fully you -- first. Love yourself fully. People will always try to tell you that they know who you are, and what you do. But I promise you won’t care as much if you know yourself deeply.  

When you think about your future, what excites you most? 

One thing that has been on my mind a while is being part of Detroit’s revitalization. I know I want to own a hotel that speaks to the Great Migration and the work done by the minority community to build up the city. I’d love to be a part of recreating Black Bottom. Hospitality is my heart and I  want to step into that passion to help impact a historically important space for Black people. I have a couple of apps I want to work on, too. I’d love to get into philanthropy. 

Weddings have been great and have taught me about different kinds of systems, and how to manage through those systems. I have a lot of confidence after building this business and it has given me more ideas and better tools to execute on those ideas. I’ve learned more, I have more resources, and I have so many ideas of other things I want to do now.

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Jessica Lynch, Social Impact Entrepreneur

Hi, Jessica! So let’s start with what you’re up to now. What do you do? 

I work as a partner at Generation Titans, a social impact company I co-founded with my two partners about two years ago. We have two areas  of work. The first is more like traditional consulting. We work with corporations, investors, and large campaigns, to help them engage with communities of color more responsibly and in a way that is authentic and not extractive. The other piece is building a pilot platform to provide resources for entrepreneurs of color in specific geographies or who work in a specific industry. 

Can you go a little more into what you mean by extractive, within the context of your work?  

I think a lot of times, right now, we’re at a place where brands recognize that activism and working with people of color is cool or the “in” thing. It’s extractive because often brands will use the image of someone or a community they represent, and those brands are rewarded with increased profit. But are brands listening to that community? Are they making investments in that community? So we try to help brands who say they have a purpose, to do it in a real way that’s authentic and that puts resources behind their words so it’s not just ads and commercials. 

I love that. So how did you get to this point in your career?  

I was passionate about education policy, and worked for two years as a college advisor in Greensboro, North Carolina. The juniors and seniors I worked with needed better opportunities to access and attend college, but you also start to realize how interconnected college access is with so many other issues in communities. Economic mobility isn’t isolated to just education. Going to college won’t solve everything because there’s still systemic racism, misogyny, and on and on. I used to think that if people just go to college, that was the answer to their problems. But I realized I needed to do work addressing barriers to entry, and at a large scale. It was hard to figure out what that meant for my career because it’s not as though you can just find that in a job posting. So I started doing social impact work through traditional consulting, but I wasn’t passionate about it. I went to the Obama Foundation and I really loved my experience there. Then I just wanted to start something on my own, and ended up working with colleagues from the Obama Foundation to start Generation Titans. 

In a way, a lot of your work at Generation Titans focuses on building networks. Can you share a bit more about the unique nature of networking as a professional of color?

I think that as a Black woman, and as an introvert, it’s been a learning curve for me personally (laughs). I’m not the type of person that likes to go to all the happy hours, talking to everyone in the room. But, I know I can connect one-on-one and I do well when I can be real with people. So I usually try to make a deeper connection with one or two people. I’ve given that advice to other people, too -- if your style of networking isn’t true to who you are, it’s going to seem forced. I learned the hard way, trying to perform the way I thought networking is meant to be. 

I go to a lot of conferences. I know some people take more of a “whatever happens, happens” approach. I will typically do research before attending an event or panel. I’ll try to identify people I want to connect with, and panels and sessions that I’m excited about. I also rely on the network of amazing Black women I have had the opportunity to go to school with, to work with, and I will try to keep them updated on what I’m doing. It’s also important to understand that who you reach out to for help doesn’t have to be someone at your job or in your industry. That has been a real process, too -- just asking for help, being honest about where I’m at, and sharing how I want to collaborate with other people.

Describe your day-to-day.

It ranges. Sometimes it’s building out a project plan. Sometimes it’s more conceptual, where I spend time thinking about what being our startup strategy looks like for us. Sometimes it’s dealing with our budget, and other day-to-day aspects of managing business operations. On the consulting side, it looks more like sales, and building relationships -- just trying to get in the door and talk to people. On the entrepreneurship side, we talk to entrepreneurs and learn what their specific needs are, and trying to come up with unique solutions where we aren’t redundant and can distinguish ourselves. We might work with a client or a partner, or have a brainstorm, or go through Quickbooks to analyze the budget. It varies day to day and so many things happen each day. 

What are the pros and cons of what you do? 

Well, it’s kind of a pro and a con but you’re the boss. You can say here’s what we’re trying to build, and you have to build buy-in with with people outside your team on the idea. But that’s also scary because if an idea doesn’t work, it’s on you. I’m a planner and want to know what is happening in three months, six months, nine months out. In a startup, you’re constantly changing and evolving as you learn more. That’s been hard. Not knowing what happens in 12 months. In a traditional nine-to-five, you have the comfort of knowing how you’ll grow, you have an idea of where your role is going to take you. But as a startup, it’s really rewarding when you have wins because you saw it through from start to finish. It was just an idea and you made it happen and now it’s real. 

Is tech making space for people of color? 

We talk about this constantly. And not just for ourselves because we’re trying to be a part of this space, but also because of the entrepreneurs we work with who are finding their footing in tech, in and outside of Silicon Valley, in venture capital. There’s a lot of bias. It’s well-documented. There is so much signaling. People will ask, what school did you go to? Because so many companies are new, there’s no way to tell whether a founder or a company is going to be great, so people use these markers like, who have you worked for? But those are not proven methods for figuring out who or what is worthy of investment or who will be a great founder.  

Outside of the Bay Area, we are seeing the tech communities in places like Atlanta and Philly saying “We can build our own tables. We don’t have to try and fit in at yours.” I get excited about that shift, and building wealth for our community as a collective. Instead of someone looking at you to figure out how you fit into their checklist of what is desirable, I think there is a new  community that is saying “Let’s figure out how we can raise capital together and we can all get to the next level.”

It’s been hard, though. Social capital and networks are so important. Who you know is such a big thing in this space, and access to those rooms. Even just access to information. I didn’t grow up knowing a lot about coding or tech as a space, or even angel investing. So you have to do a lot to figure out where the opportunities are. It’s also worth figuring out what’s free. You can take a class at the General Assembly or enroll in a coding bootcamp, but it’s thousands of dollars. There are lots of resources at the grassroots level focused on allowing people in and helping them navigate this space. 

What is a moment or some words of inspiration that you consistently return to? 

There is one moment I remember from when I first started working in consulting. I was really excited to have the job, and I had a little imposter syndrome. The first year, I would always want to prove my value for being there, so I would be the first to volunteer to take notes during meetings. I don’t know what I was trying to prove. But there was this woman whose project I was working on. I had worked under her for six months and she was a mentor. One day she said to me, “You’re present but you’re passive. If you want to be more than the note taker, you need to claim space in the room.” I think of that today when trying to find my utility in a room. And so I would advise young black women to use their voices. Our voice is productive and powerful, and we bring so much to the spaces we are in. That is our value -- not taking notes, not getting coffee, but being present and bring our perspectives to spaces

What makes you uniquely suited to do what you do? 

I’m someone who likes to connect the dots, and it happens pretty naturally. I’ll talk to someone and think, “Oh, this person needs to meet this other person.” It’s useful at work. And I like solving problems -- how to organize my day, what the team needs to do, what I need to do -- to get things done. When things go left or something unexpected happens, it gives me so much energy and motivation because I’m like, “I never want to experience that again!” (laughs) And, also, I think just having a lot of work experiences. I’ve worked in consulting, at a nonprofit, and now at a startup, so I’m able to pull from that diverse skill set. 

What are you excited about for the future?

Right now, I’m in the early stages of a startup. But in the next year or two, if we do the things we want to do, we will have centered entrepreneurs of color and demonstrated their value. That will be awesome for us. They’re running amazing businesses. I want to have my friends support them, and see my friends buying those products. I see how that vision could be real, even though it’s going to take some time. I will feel good about what we’ve done when other people see entrepreneurship as something they can do, and to realize that they don’t have to be in Silicon Valley. They don’t have to fit some specific profile. They can be themselves. 

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